New Raw Zeny Farming Map

crybabyhunter

This one's a no-brainer, we are in dire need of a new farming place for raw zeny.

Ideally, the map should be way bigger than Thanatos 12th floor, and the mobs should be stronger than those of Th12 so we get the full end-game experience we lack on maps like Niff2. It would also be ideal if teleportation is utilized on that map, as teleportation reduces the risk of ksing other players. More importantly, the raw zeny we'll make from this proposed map should be as profitable as Th12, if not greater.

Why we need this? For one, most of the drama I've seen in this server happened because of farming/ksing. A lot of people are whining and crying about the ksing that happens during farming time, and in worst cases X player will call out Y player for allegedly ksing them. This gets old but we never see a solution.

As of right now, the only viable map for farming raw zeny is Th12, and that place is way too small and packed. Farming-related incidents are sure to flare up over there. Other farming maps like CTB, Niff, Oz2 etc. don't yield raw zeny, and thus, the market for their goods are highly competitive and can remain stagnant for long periods of time. Thus farmers from those maps don't always see profits.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. Peace!

Choco

Misao Same as before. Also you didn't even read or understand the suggestion.

There'd be a large map, yes, but no new influx of zeny: the same ppl farming th12 would just split between that and the new map. And the profit potential of both would be equivalent.

The thought that the people would split is pretty naive. There's alot of people not farming tha12 becasue there is such a hard competition and its not that profitable to farm with multiple people there.
Now if there would be a map where one can easily farm same amount or even more and dont have the troubles of tha12, there would be way more activity.

I did read the suggestion but i also did some quick calculations.

So lets crunch some numbers:

In thana12 (lets assume some numbers according to my farming experience):
-a solo farmer can easily make 130_140m/hr so that's 140m added to server/hr
-2 people farming there can both make 100_110m/hr so thats 200_220m added to the server/hr
-3 people farming there can maybe make 80_90m/hr so thats 240_270m added to the server/hr

I usually dont see more than 3 people over a sustained amount of time farming there.
But even if more people would farm there, because of the small map and mob numbers, there is a cap of how much zeny can be generated per hour.

The whole map offers around 350k raw zeny. Let's assume a bunch of people working together clear the whole map instantly every 2 seconds. That would make 630M zeny added to the server in an hour.

Now lets say we get a new map

crybabyhunter way bigger than Thanatos 12th floor

which can therefore support more people, id assume factor 5 here (because it way bigger).
Since the map is so big and

crybabyhunter this proposed map should be as profitable as Th12, if not greater.

I can assume that 140m/hr is an easy feat there even when other people farm.
Also becasue the map is so big and still proftable there will be wayy more activity than in tha12.
So, lets take an avg amount of 8 people who farm 140m/hr. that results in 1120M raw zeny added to the server per hour.

That's nearly twice as much zeny added to the server as the very unlike scenario that I pictured for tha12.
Now tell me thats not leading to inflation. Maybe a GM can add some numbers of total zeny of the server population to have something to compare to.

Another expected effect could be, because the raw zeny is so good & there will be less competition, less people will be willing to farm other spots (which are kinda already kind of neglected) that yield materials and other drops.

So my opinion stays the same. The suggestions as it stands there right now is probably not a good one for the future of the server. It might be a fun thing for short but problems would come with it over time. Give it somehow a limit (instance maybe) and it would be fine.
But I'd rather like support the idea to make existing end game maps more attractive and worthwhile than to create a whole new map that potentially lead to a problem.

TL;DR: An additional new map that has the possibility to add 2-5 times more zeny to the server than tha12 seem just not healthy for the server. Make existing maps more attractive.

hazel_e

I don't think something like this is needed or warranted. CTB and Nif are great spots for zeny since they also provide precious materials like zelunium and shadowdecon. We don't need a bunch of spots that give tons of zeny, there should be pro's and con's to every spot for the sake of balance. What you are proposing is a dream spot with lots of pros and little con. As an example, Nif2 may not give as much raw zeny (con) as other similar spots, however the trees drop bloody branches(pro) which can be used in large quantities to acquire MVP cards. AND youc an sell the branches too. See how that works? Thana12 same deal, you get a ton of raw zeny(pro) but no shadowdecon(con) and you only get zelunium ore(con). It's balanced as well. There shouldn't be a best spot to farm in the first place, it all depends on your needs currently. All the spots mentioned here are viable and serve different purposes.

Misao

hazel_e

There shouldn't be a best spot to farm in the first place

They did not suggest a "best spot to farm". They suggested a map comparable to thana12 in terms of profits. Plus it would have a higher gear requirement as th12 is just weak monsters.

Let me layout the pros and cons you're talking about from how I understood the suggestion:

pros

More space
Teleport enabled
More monsters?

cons

Stronger monsters

neutral

Around same profits as th12

I always liked this idea of a custom, well balanced zeny farming map so I support this suggestion. (it may need some tweaking)

But I think you're completely missing the point of everyone's concerns with kill stealing if you believe this would solve the problem.

EvilLumi

Misao I support Novel Writer. This idea needs tweaking, so that the amount of zenny per hour is equivalent to thanatos 12, no matter how hard you try. I simply support not farming on a small map full of people who will intentionally farm your mobs for you. Not that I would have a problem taking that entire map for myself, but how would that be fair to anyone if I did? This is more about having a comfortable place to relax and farm, knowing you could be doing the same thing in thanatos 12, with more bickering, more grief, more resentment, and possible gm involvement.

This is more of a QOL more than anything.

SpaceHelm

Bad idea, that might lead to inflation.

Misao

SpaceHelm

Bad idea, that might lead to inflation.

Quoting StellarFlare: This isn't Market Simulator.

Choco

there's gonna be a large influx of zeny

Same as before. Also you didn't even read or understand the suggestion.

There'd be a large map, yes, but no new influx of zeny: the same ppl farming th12 would just split between that and the new map. And the profit potential of both would be equivalent.

If you don't like big walls of texts you can read just the title; but if you do that you shouldn't reply with a lame half-assed opinion without knowing what the suggestion is about...

Choco

I also see the issue of inflation here. The server already throws out alot of zeny because we get zeny from monster kills. If theres now a large map for geared players (prob more than half of the active player base should be pretty well geared), there's gonna be a large influx of zeny. Which can lead to massive inflation.

zarkhaev

I dont think adding a new map is necessary when we have TWO high-level (250) unused. Reworking both Mjolnir and Rachel maps for viability is better I think.

anm767

I also support not farming the same map by everyone. Always found it silly, that the whole server farms the same map.
I would like to see an exploration driven farming. There are so many maps in RO and all of us are on four of them.
Could look at balancing drop rates of valuable/sellable items throw-out Midgard so people can move around a bit. That's what I like about Royal Hunt, can explore the world hunting, too bad the reward is somewhat outdated.

Misao

Choco

twice as much zeny added to the server as the very unlike scenario that I pictured for tha12

Well, you do acknowledge that's a very unlikely th12 scenario.

Only a few people farm that amount of zeny relative to the total players who farm there.
It's not always full of people
A lot of people don't go there because they can't 1 shot the monsters or get knocked back by Dark Thunder (and NOT because of the competition)

The proposed new map would result in these same circumstances, even more so. It's supposed to be hard so you can't really say people will 'easily farm'. The entrance barrier will be higher, way less people would farm there. It would mean only the more endgame players will have access to that zeny, which I don't see as a bad thing (a new endgame goal/reward).

You say that players wouldn't split but at the same time you imply everyone will go farm there. Again I don't think everyone in the server makes 140M/h in th12, not even half the server, not even 10%. Look at the active players at any given time, 160 online players. Do you ever see that many players in the floor? Or even throughout the day? And of those people only a fraction make that much (or even 80M).

This suggestion would not create new people out of thin air. The idea of equating this new farming map to generating new zeny is nonsense. Again, you said it yourself: people will move from CTB/NIF/etc. to this new map (and th12).

And on top of all, this is a good thing. If you read in fact the suggestion they mention how these maps don't always see profit from how competitive they are right now (Bloody Branches 800k????). Having people move to a raw zeny farming map would mean these other dungeons will be more profitable, which means mid game players will have a chance to make more zeny while the endgame people can farm the new map and buy from them. Also since th12 will be less crowded, early game players can have more of a chance there (if they really fear the competition as you say).

Overall I feel like your conclusions don't really match you analysis. I don't see a new influx of zeny happening, maybe in the short term yes because everyone will be hyped to try the new map, which again is the opposite of what you're concluding (short term good long term bad).

With that said I also like the idea of improving existing maps, but it would probably create the opposite effect. I'm realizing we might be in a situation where people who buy stuff would benefit from this, while people who sell stuff would benefit from the alleged 'inflation'.

My personal take is always that the server shouldn't be geared towards building a market. The market adapts to whatever the players need and decide to farm. Their gameplay experience is what comes first and foremost. It baffles me there can barely be a suggestion here without people going 'but muh market!!!' (no pun intended)

Choco

Misao Well, you do acknowledge that's a very unlikely th12 scenario.

I think you either didn't really read my or understand my point there.
The very unlikely scenario was there to showcase how much zeny the actual tha12 map could theoretically generate.
I made that scenario to show the very big difference in zeny generation compared to the suggested new map.
AKA "best case zeny generation in tha12" vs "my avg expected zeny generation on the suggested new map"
Ofcourse was that scenario exaggerated (becasue usually u have an avg of 2 people there) but that exaggerated calculation was to favor the position of the suggested new map in the zeny generation comparison.
U see, 220m (avg tha12 generation) vs 1100m (my avg for the suggested map) sounds even worse right?

Misao Only a few people farm that amount of zeny relative to the total players who farm there.

Where do u get that info from? Nearly every player I meet there while farming make atleast 90-100m/hr (in a maximum of 2 player scenarios). And I was quite often there lately.

Misao It's not always full of people

Yeah and I never said that (because its on avg 1-2 people). That's actually also a minus for the new suggested map. Because when it's not full there very often, why make another map?
As mentioned above, the scenario if pictured where tha12 is full of people was just to calculate the expected maximum zeny generation of tha12 for a better comparison with the new suggested map.

Misao A lot of people don't go there because they can't 1 shot the monsters or get knocked back by Dark Thunder (and NOT because of the competition)

Again, where do u get that info from? Also, your statements seem too reflect a very casual stance. A very low percentage of the playerbase that put some thought in the spot they want to farm shouldn't be able to farm tha12. But i know a lot people who prefer to farm CTB/NIF2/PIT over tha12 because of the mentioned competition, KS and other reasons. Those would with very high chance change to the new suggested map.
I also have a very casual friend, who plays maybe 3-5hrs/week and he can farm thana but mostly prefers to farm snakes nest, because he doesnt want to compete with mages in tha12.

Sidenote, tha12 is pretty easily farmable with very low equipment requirements (illusion equipment and glacier weapon, im looking at you) and easy counter measures (bathory card, guyak pudding, sp pots).

Sidenote 2: ALL those point are pretty irrelvant for my statement becasue what i showcased was the amount of zeny generation that is actually possible through tha12 and is already available ingame.

Misao It's supposed to be hard so you can't really say people will 'easily farm'. The entrance barrier will be higher, way less people would farm there. It would mean only the more endgame players will have access to that zeny, which I don't see as a bad thing (a new endgame goal/reward).

Again, naive. What is supposed to be hard? Constellation Tower is supposed to be the hardest content in the game, but because the gear progression on this server is very fast, it is easily farmed by a good amount of people right now (numbers increasing). Nebula equipment (the best equipment in game) is spread far and wide and materials are easily obtainable if you invest a few hours of farming. Those people who farm every day (also most likely the people who add the most zeny to the server) are most of the time either pretty well or even fully geared. Those people should be easily able to farm the map and they would. They aren't endgame players for no reason (reason being very efficient and active farmers).

Misao You say that players wouldn't split but at the same time you imply everyone will go farm there. Again I don't think everyone in the server makes 140M/h in th12, not even half the server, not even 10%. Look at the active players at any given time, 160 online players. Do you ever see that many players in the floor? Or even throughout the day? And of those people only a fraction make that much (or even 80M).

Again where do u take that information from? Don't reflect from your experience on the regular tha12 farmers. Let's take the last 7 days (because that's where i was pretty actively checking tha12, so i have actual intel on that). Every time tha12 was occupied by 1-2 people, they would all run on guyak (and bathory) and clear the map pretty fast(around my speed). So getting a bare minimum of 80-90m (using bbg) can be confidently assumed.

Misao This suggestion would not create new people out of thin air. The idea of equating this new farming map to generating new zeny is nonsense. Again, you said it yourself: people will move from CTB/NIF/etc. to this new map (and th12).

I never claimed that people would be created out of thin air. The people that farm tha12 are rotating alot (see my piint on competition), so there's potentially alot people who would join the new map instead.
Nif2/CTB/PIT don't even generate a fraction of the raw zeny that a tha12 equivalent map would produce. So if those people move (and they would most likely) there will be much more raw zeny generated.
Again basic math: 1hr effiecient NIF2 farm: 14m raw zeny vs 1hr efficient tha12-like map 140m/hr that's factor 10 more zeny generated.

Misao And on top of all, this is a good thing. If you read in fact the suggestion they mention how these maps don't always see profit from how competitive they are right now (Bloody Branches 800k????).

I don't know where u are taking this price from but market price was always atleast around 1m besides a few 1day dips(looking at you vending history). If people decide they need to rush those Bloody Branches in #trade and sell them for very cheap prices (like you mentioned), that's their fault. I mean there are even buying shops with 900K/ea.

Misao Having people move to a raw zeny farming map would mean these other dungeons will be more profitable, which means mid game players will have a chance to make more zeny while the endgame people can farm the new map and buy from them.

That point is highly speculative, we already have a lot of wealthy end game players out there, but they try to buy the goods as low as possible (look at the players in #trade who want to buy BB for <1m).

Misao Also since th12 will be less crowded, early game players can have more of a chance there (if they really fear the competition as you say).

Well i'd expect those who can farm the new map (+those from other maps) will move while those who can't stay in thana until they can move.
So now we have 2 maps that possibly generate alot raw zeny instead of 1. Exactly my point.

Misao Overall I feel like your conclusions don't really match you analysis. I don't see a new influx of zeny happening, maybe in the short term yes because everyone will be hyped to try the new map, which again is the opposite of what you're concluding

I think you just want to project your own view or are too naive to see that the active farming players (those who add a big part to the server economy) will always chose to join a profitable place (considering possible zeny gain / competition and the convenience to have instant raw zeny).

If the map really features zeny gain of same or more than tha12, with a more comfortable and stable farming experience (less competition), they will stay. I mean look at the popular farming places, why do we see on avg more people in NIF2/CTB/EP19 dungeons compared to tha12? Because the maps still offer decent zeny on a bigger map with more mobs which results in less competition. The downside is that the items need to be sold so there's no instant profit. If we now get a convenient map that offers the pro's of the before mentioned big maps and the pro of getting instant raw zeny, that would make that map way more attractive than any other map.

Misao With that said I also like the idea of improving existing maps, but it would probably create the opposite effect. I'm realizing we might be in a situation where people who buy stuff would benefit from this, while people who sell stuff would benefit from the alleged 'inflation'.

I don't see the point here? It's not even said how the other maps would be improved. Sure if you just add some already common drops (zelunium, shadowdecon) which would be the cheap and easy way, the prices may or may not drop. I mean as you said, people won't appear from thin air, so the people farming there would move from other maps with said drops, so the overall increase probably wouldn't be significant. On the other hand we maybe could think of ways to improve existing maps so that those materials don't get touched.

Misao My personal take is always that the server shouldn't be geared towards building a market. The market adapts to whatever the players need and decide to farm. Their gameplay experience is what comes first and foremost. It baffles me there can barely be a suggestion here without people going 'but muh market!!!' (no pun intended)

Welp, I never said anything about the "market", but adding (potentially alot) more raw zeny generation to a server was, and will never be healthy. Atleast as long as we don't get more heavy zeny sinks. But again that wouldn't be in favor of casual and new players.

MY CONCLUSION:

1st scenario:
Everything stays mostly the same, some high end geared efficient farmers switch from their respective preferred farming map (NIF2/CTB/PIT/whatever) to the new map and farm there. > increase in zeny generation because those maps only generate a fraction of the raw zeny compared to the new map.
Tha12 will mostly stay the same cause those players who want raw zeny but can't farm the new map will still farm tha12.

Result 1st scenario: Raw zeny from tha12 + raw zeny from new map > more overall zeny generation

2nd scenario:
The new map is so attractive that everyone who can farm it will switch to the new map (from maps like NIF2/CTB/PIT/whatever which dont generate much raw zeny) and everyone who can't tries to get there asap. > very big increase in raw zeny generation
Tha12 stays either the same
OR Since mid players can now profit more from selling drops of NIF2/CTB/PIT/whatever (because all end game farmers are now farmign zeny) they will farm there and tha12 is free for new players & casual. > price increase for all materials & still zeny generation via tha12

Result 2nd scenario: way more raw zeny generation and rising material prices, which make purchasing them for casual and new players harder because they (probably) can't farm tha12 very efficient.

I can probably think of more scenarios but in the end they all result in more raw zeny generation OR they render the implementation of a new map useless.

You mentioned earlier that tha12 isn't always full of people. And that's also my observation. Often times theres only 1 player and just sometimes 2 or more. SO WHY DO WE NEED ANOTHER MAP (that will come with problems and work for the GMs)? There's no justified reason.

This will also be my last post on this thread. I think i made my point clear and i wont dwell further on this topic.

Misao

I still see a lot of contradiction, even more than before, in your arguments. But since this is your last post I'm not gonna point all of them out.

But in summary you're going back and forth between: new map profitable > ppl move to new map cause nif/ctb not profitable anymore > nif/ctb mats price increases > but this would mean it becomes profitable again so previous point is nullified > and so on. Market would reach a balance where every map would still be profitable for someone.

That point is highly speculative, we already have a lot of wealthy end game players out there, but they try to buy the goods as low as possible (look at the players in #trade who want to buy BB for <1m).

Everything we've been saying since your very first post is speculative. And it doesn't make sense to state "people will move away from these maps" without assuming prices for those mats will rise.

You've convinced me through some of your points that indeed there will most likely be some zeny influx, but I fail to see how we will have "2 or 5 times" the zeny generation we have now, or how it will hurt the market or the people or the early/mid game players.

I'm personally not the one who made the suggestion, I'd rather see the GMs actually do something about the KS instead of just ignoring the problem as if it didn't exist, while just listening to the vocal minority of the community who all happen to be KSers themselves when it comes to "listening to the community".

However I don't think this is such a bad idea for the general experience of zeny farming. And could make the KS situation at least more bearable.