@noks - rework (help big aoe players)

evilvell

I suggest to rework current @noks or add option for big aoe players to completly miss on @noks instead of warning.

Most of the players doesnt kill steal intentionally, so add the option to prevent getting debuffs.

Its hard to cast a comet without a ks warning on crowded niff(5+ players) or with inquisitor snapping to you to flag mobs

MadMonkey

evilvell Its hard to cast a comet without a ks warning on crowded niff

I mean, if you're using a big AoE on a crowded map, what else do you expect?
This is literally one of the reason the noks is there.

jinbou

Disagree.

Pasu

Disagree too, i also want to nerf Comet even im a AM because some guys just spam it with others lure. In SEA, bad connection already a problem and alot players cant control smoothly so with others have a good ping they can easy tele and cast skill without delay. Now you want to cast Comet skill without @noks warning, it'll be disaster for newbie first then for bad ping players

CongaLyne

I don't think his idea is to let big aoes bypass @noks entirely, rather it's to not trigger a @noks warning and add progress towards getting a drop rate debuff

evilvell

my suggestion is if ks occures -> comet deal 0 dmg(miss) = prevent ability to ks. With what you disagree? Atm players with good ping abuse @noks mechanics with smooth movement and movement abilities.

I spend my time to gear up optimizing kills/min. I'm having a ping issues too. But getting warnings because someone out of the screen jump on mobs is not fun, inquisitor's snapping around just to flag @noks on mobs is not fun too.

Why should someone get punished because wing teleports you to the same player again and again with better ping so you getting warnings again and again?

Why someone should optimize build around custom @noks mechanics?

jinbou

evilvell

Don't you need to have 10 warnings within 5 minutes for the ks debuff to activate?

An inquisitor suddenly snapping from out of screen to a mob near you, taking the mob aggro, within a timeframe you can't react so you can't cancel your skill, and for the mobs to still be alive by the time your skill hits giving you a ks warning…

This is not something that can happen that often. You're talking about an exception case that would very rarely happen.

If you're getting a ks debuff, it's not because of inquisitors, most likely 1 of those warnings is because of the inquisitor and the other 9 are actual ks attempts because you're not paying attention. I often farm niff2 with my AM too and I literally never had a ks debuff on me ever. Occasional ks warnings happen, but never frequent enough to get a debuff.

And yes I don't want this change because people trying to KS your mobs is annoying regardless, even if they fail to do it, and I'd rather want them try to pay attention to the people around them if they want to play an online game.

The current ks system works fine, giving enough leeway to not get punished by occasional accidents, but deterring people from overdoing it

If you disagree then you should instead record your farming session and show to the GMs how you can get 10 undeserved KS warnings within a few minutes. I doubt it, but if it actually happens, then I'm sure they'd take action and make tweaks on their noks system

MadMonkey

evilvell I understood your suggestion.
And I disagree because it's literally just you missing the point of the noks.
The system is voluntarily punishing, but not randomly so.
If you're getting KS warnings, then you likely just don't pay attention when farming/don't care about potentially KSing someone in the first place (using Comet on a crowded map would attest to that).

evilvell Why someone should optimize build around custom @noks mechanics?

It's not about building around noks, it's about not getting yourself into a situation where you would/do KS.

jinbou I don't want this change because people trying to KS your mobs is annoying regardless, even if they fail to do it, and I'd rather want them try to pay attention to the people around them if they want to play an online game.

This is what it's all about.

evilvell

So my suggestion is to prevent the possibility of kill stealing at all. And you disagree because you want to punish players for efficient farming? Hah.

How should we treat people utilizing movement abilities with good ping, which intentionally "kill-steal" without a warning, i dont want to spend my time creating report tickets cutting the replays. Its gonna take a lot of time that i can spend playing the game that enjoy currently.

I already wasting time on useless argues.

jinbou

evilvell

So my suggestion is to prevent the possibility of kill stealing at all. And you disagree because you want to punish players for efficient farming? Hah.

The current implementation of noks already prevents killstealing from happening, your suggestion doesn't change/improve anything in that regard.

And yes I want the people who obstinately try to steal mobs to keep getting punished too. Many people do it clearly intentionally and they're being insufferable, so some kind of deterrent needs to be in place. If you don't intentionally do it and you pay even a little bit of attention, then it won't happen over 10 times within 5 minutes. It's pretty simple.

MadMonkey

evilvell my suggestion is to prevent the possibility of kill stealing at all

If this is your aim, you might as well put a little bit more effort and avoid KSing as much as possible.
That'd resolve your problem with KS warnings.

evilvell you disagree because you want to punish players for efficient farming?

I have neither the power nor the desire to punish any player.
You're punishing yourself by triggering other players' KS protection, and getting debuffed as a result.
That's on you.

All I have to add is, if what you call efficient farming merely equates to you running/TPing around throwing nukes left and right with no care, triggering multiple warnings that add up to a hefty debuff, it probably is deserved.
It takes multiple warnings in a short span of time to even see that debuff.
And even more for it to start to become impacting.
We're not talking about occasional KS accidents here.

cruro

I don't know what a good solution could look like, but I think OP does have a point.

As an Inquisitor, it's not rare that my chat looks like this:

I pixelated the names because I truly think neither them nor me did anything wrong.

It can happen when I approach a monster from one side, while the other player approaches them from the opposite side, we don't even see each other in that case. The difference is that their skill would kill the monster, so that I am not in danger of triggering ks, while my skill merely moves me to the monster. So there is a small time-window between me "securing" the monster and actually killing it, where the other player will receive a warning.

However, I very much like that being close to a monster secures it for that player, as before that, all classes that have to gap-close to deal damage were at a heavy disadvantage.

Maybe a solution could be that, if the player disables @noks for them, they also won't receive noks punishments themselves (but still miss on protected monsters). Another solution might be to somehow incorporate the distance into the equation and only trigger a warning when the "offending" player is actually somewhat close.

CongaLyne

I think the main problem with noks warning spam more than anything else is it's annoying.
It's like someone's constantly tapping you on the back of the head telling you that you left clicked when you already know.

In dungeons like Nif2 it's currently highly incentivized to teleport, laser focus on any grotes you find, kill them and then teleport away to find a new batch.
There's no incentive during that period to wait around and see if anyone else is nearby to avoid KSing them because if you do that you'll massively lower your kills/hr and ironically have your own grotes stolen by other players.

During peak nif2 hours, it's definitely easy to get more than 20 warnings in 5 minutes with high player density, nobody's intentionally trying to KS during that period but it just happens due to how many people there are.
Most of the time in there I don't even notice other players on my screen until I'm confused why I can't damage something, all I see are grotes.

It's not a conscious act to KS essentially is what it comes down to and it's frustrating having the game frame it that way, especially when there's already the "miss" system in place to prevent you KSing at all.

Muh

We feel the system itself is in a good spot right now - feel free to correct me though.

Question is rather, shall we do something about the messages?

DreamFall

Muh I think it'd be nice to add another option to Kill Steal Protection settings menu as it's done for BG messages item for example: in addition to on and off make another option "On with notifications disabled" or something like that (but you'll still see blue ones on maps where KS doesn't work). Sounds legit for me.

SpaceHelm

Muh can we somehow check if we happened to getting the debuff ? and how many debuff we have ?

additionally i have something in my mind, but yeah in my personal opinion, i wont ks people necessarily, but when i teleport, drop skills as quick as i can to maximize my farming, i might have also targeted monster that already been tag'ed by other people. therefore i got the warning ks. genuinely its hard sometime when we are in crowded map, to know which monster belongs to us / not.

My question is more like, why do we get warning message (debuff also), when the KS protection is triggered? because in a sense ks protection makes my skills missed toward the monster, which also means = im not really ks'ing them, because the monster doesnt get hit by my skill. the ks protection already do their jobs on protectings player's monster. why does the other party needs to get debuff?

i would love to hear ur answer about this. since i feel like ur ks protection system is already good on making other people miss their skills while trying to "ks".

EvilLumi

Make @noks even MORE aggressive, so people become even more careful and just start acting considerate instead of just jumping on a mob they think is free. People would learn then. 😃

Seems like it's finally working.

MadMonkey

EvilLumi This, but unironically.
Too many peeps acting like there's no farming to be had without not caring/paying attention to their surroundings.
Literally the main reason the "miss" system was implemented.
So you can keep KSing without actually KSing.
Instead of, you know, not KSing in the first place.