[PvP] Disable Dual Clienting in a Castle for immersive GvG

Meer

This post will feel like a rant, I'm sorry for that. There's a saying from the MMORPG Producer of FINAL FANTASY XIV, Naoki Yoshida. I hope this post will be beneficial for all of us.

If a dev team is the government, then players are the citizens.
→If citizens disapprove of your policies, they’ll move to Canada
Clarity, vision, and willingness to listen are keys to success.
→Without these, the government devolves into a dictatorship
Learn to listen and adapt. A complaint is worth twice a compliment.
→The silent always leave first. If citizens are complaining, it means they still care.
Creators must be players in their own realms.
→If the leaders don’t live there, why would their subjects?

Something that I've always had in my mind was the dual clienting problem. Quite a lot of veterans from the closed server seem to be complaining about this to me. This was also something that got my attention during my first WoE TE in MuhRO. This belongs to fundamental difference, some people might prefer playing multiple client, some might prefer the closed server version of WoE, single client only. This is why any decision making regarding this matter will be dangerous for both sides of the spectrum. I personally do not want to support the kind of WoE where people are multi clienting, cause of following reasons:

Having dual client inside castle enabled:

The rich will be able to make multiple characters, multiple builds, and play them at the same time.
Just to make a proper SBK SinX already wasted me close to 2b, now imagine if someone who is super rich, making 10x characters worth of 20b zeny and put this 5x SinX and 5x High Wizard on emp room, so every time one of his character got killed, he can swap client over and over again without having to talk to the Flag and walk to emp room. This belong to one of the flaw of kRO design that we should NEVER follow.
No punishment for getting killed
From what I observed, someone has multiple clients up. He has at least one character on emp room, and he sends his alt char to chip down the players near the Flag NPC inside the castle. There's no punishment for getting killed for this person, cause all he know he can always chipping down the enemy team by keep on going inside, but the moment the enemy team push the emp room, he can switch back to his main which is currently sitting in emp room. Good gameplay, something that I personally would be able to replicate of course, but would I want to support this kind of WoE. Probably not. Not only I would have to spend another billions of zeny to do that, having 10+ clients up at a time is immersion breaking. I want the teamwork with my teammate during the GvG not MULTI CLIENT gaming. This is actually fine, that person is chipping us down before the emp room. But only if he actually doesn't have another alt inside the emp room. That is strategical choice, I respect that.
The shift of power really benefits the defending guild, and cheapens out the "Scout" Role
It makes it way harder for the attacking guild to fight against people with multiple clients cause of the reasons above, but the really sad part is how "Scout" role is not needed anymore cause of this. People who multiple clients will "scout" with their disposable alt characters. So there's no reason to have "Scout" role in the GvG.

Potential Problem:

But what about if I want to have Bragi inside the castle?
Get someone to play Bragi, if no one wants to play Bragi, then how about you play Bragi instead? This is what makes GvG immersive. The teamwork, the sacrifice, the hardwork, the grinds to achieve the gears, the strategy. Sometimes you can even switch roles with people, you lend them your gears, and you get to use their gears. One day you might be playing a cracked SinX SBK, but the other day you sacrifice and play Bragi to let the other member to try out as DPS using your gears.

Having dual client in castle disabled:

Immersive GvG, cause everyone get to focus 100% on single client and will get pushed to tryharding on that char.
Every single life matters, getting killed as a single client only player will feel immersive. It really can rages you, it can really force you to think "Where would be the blind spot next time, what should I do to improve my positioning, should I try stream snipe BlackIntels 🤣 to see how they are defending their castle?"
Focus more on teamwork gameplay vs individual gameplay. You will start to really min max on how you can use your teammate in GvG scenario. Something that probably people with multiple client won't really feel, as they are busy switching between clients.

An example of how single-client only GvG did to my old guild (3rd Job Based):

We theorycrafted the GvG up to every single cells, which cells are dangerous to which skills, which people should be standing where during attacking.

On defense, we would have ideas where to stand, where people should be standing to maximize the needed buffs, where the Ground Control gonna be, where the main stack gonna be. Would this be something that we gonna get with multiple clients up? They probably can, but they are less likely to do.

So back to the beginning:

3. Learn to listen and adapt. A complaint is worth twice a compliment.
→The silent always leave first. If citizens are complaining, it means they still care.

I hope this will start the discussion needed to adress how our WoE gonna be in the future.

Lim

i play solo client and i understand your point of view and i know you want to be immersive on this woe, i might suggest on lowering the clients instead of disabling it all. currently the woe is alive coz we make it look like a lot. maybe in the future with more people playing this could happen. no hate, just woe.

and if you are complaining about people that are rich, i think you're missing the point that they farm hard for that, they just didn't throw money at it and viola gear. it has a trial and error on gearing class. so many zeny as well was wasted by testing stuff on the current pvp content.

SpaceHelm

Lim its not all about the zeny ofc, but i guess with the way how many castle there is, its just gonna be : "whoever have more alts win" kinda thing. While 1 char defnse castle A, the other going to B. Etc.. its so pointless and make the gvg boring.
Also else it wouldb bring hide and seek gamestyle. Whats the point of playing hide and seek in woe?

Lim and if you are complaining about people that are rich, i think you're missing the point that they farm hard for that, they just didn't throw money at it and viola gear.

And also regarding this, do u really want to make game style where ppl have more zeny = have ALOT more to win? Doesnt feels like a game i want to play. And not pure skills. Ofc gears matter, but if u want to gear up 10 chars, vs 1 guy who have geared one, obv its just straight unfair advantage. And i believe woe isnt just "who have more zeny + better pc" right? If u think who have more zeny should win, then i wont argue you further with my point.
Nb: ofc i aggree better gear = better chance to win, but not at point where everyone has to have 10 alts to have around the same chance of winning.

Meer

https://discord.com/channels/822793286786875403/1009682794638757938/1137636993547907072

Just putting these images down here cause I don't want to lose the information, that's related to the topic.

Lim

i play solo client and i understand your point of view and i know you want to be immersive on this woe, i might suggest on lowering the clients instead of disabling it all. currently the woe is alive coz we make it look like a lot. maybe in the future with more people playing this could happen. no hate, just woe.

I really don't want to shotcall in WoE like this:

"Okay everyone use your alt right now, chip them down, they are near the flag in NPC. One person stay on main char watching in Emp Room, the other 10x can play their alt char. The moment they start pushing emp room, I will call to go back to your main char"

I know that would be possible to be done. Yet It's way too immersion breaking and I already stated up above, something that I do not support at all.

and if you are complaining about people that are rich, i think you're missing the point that they farm hard for that, they just didn't throw money at it and viola gear. it has a trial and error on gearing class. so many zeny as well was wasted by testing stuff on the current pvp content.

Of course I understand this part, cause I already spent 2B on the PvP scene alone. But if we go by this mentality, might as well just enable all MVP Cards. Those people who have 20 MVP Cards farmed really hard for it as well.

That aside, the thing about Ragnarok Online by nature, it has law of diminishing return. Spending 5B on a single character would most likely less impactful compared to spending 5B on 3 characters. Cause again, one only has one single life to fight, playing with alts practically lets you have 3 lives. While the 5b on a single character probably would only be able to squeeze out +5% more damage on the last billion spent.

So the fundamental questions gonna be:

Should I force my teammate to multiple client as well?
Should EVERYONE who plays in MuhRO WoE TE learn how to play Multiclient gaming if they want to tryhard?

BOTripleC

Dual clienting in WOE TE is very cancerous because how First Edition castle works. Super close flag spawn near emperium room with portal-cast system is pretty unfair advantageous for defending guild.
If you don't wanna give us single client only woe it's fine, but change the castle to Second Edition instead.

EvilLumi

I was always for allowing multiclient, but if it's one thing that my ex taught me, when he was making groups of people rage quit the game, is that it's just too overpowered. Let alone, this was more than a decade ago, with pre renewal jobs. This type of thing just doesn't belong in pvp, because one really good player, can become 10 really good players.

I personally just don't believe in multiclienting while in any pvp scenario, because I fully understand it, and how simple it is to overpower any group who are unprepared for my train of thought. It's also just not right to create that type of advantage. PVM, it's whatever, but when it involves skill? we should leave it to those who really have it, not those who fund it.

CannonMeat Then reduce the number of people necessary, or promote the idea of WoE. Aren't you supposed to be a helper? because this was a rather ignorant reply. Seems to be a habit for everyone who was here before everyone else arrived. Some sort of strange ego. I think a better question would be to ask all the old players: Do you even want us here? because day in, day out, it's some ignorant reply from somewhere. Perhaps this is the reason why the server never boomed. You should also have more respect for Meer, he actually put effort into his statement, so that it's easier to read and understand for you.

MadMonkey

EvilLumi Tbf the server never boomed because people were put off by the low population and the fact there already was a very popular server on the same lane.
The community in itself never was a problem.
That said I completely agree with your points.
Multiclienteling doesn't belong in GvG/PvP environment.
Period.
And I find the fact that this even is a debate quite concerning.
Anyone with half a brain can understand how this can be abused/breaks balance.
Except those that profits from it apparently.
As for the "There isn't enough people playing" argument, man, I don't understand how this is even an argument.
Like, what the heck do you need alts for if nobody is there to contest/fight?
You know what?
Cannon Meat, I dont know you and you seem like a genuine player, and one that knows what he is doing.
But while I may not be among those oldest player, I was there quite some time before the Nova nuke, and this isn't the 1st time I recall seeing you on the less sensible side of a discussion.
I'd almost wonder just why and how you were deemed a proper "helper" if not for that little thread on RMS (which I won't link here) that gives some ideas as to why exactly this might be the case.

nirn_

CannonMeat oh also please bring your counter argument. that's what Icecold message on discord anyway. the hard truth is she acknowledge you two and only one person being open minded and treat matters wisely.

CannonMeat

nirn_
1st of all i m only a mod to help ice and muh a lil bit in organizing suggestions
so this was my thought when i saw that suggestion (so please don t say hey a mod is against this and so on)

And it kinda got on my nerves since i (we) never complained ugh nerv this ugh nerv that
oh they use dual client i don t want to use that so plz nerv... thats what i read
when owsla 1st came around and beat me up did i complain? no i searched for companions and startet to
improve myself together with the others
but instead of improving oneself just nerv the others is what i read in this suggestion.

to the 1st prob of meer thats how ro works stronger /richer players will always be op
it doesn t matter if 1 person is dual clienting with 20b worth of eq on 10 chars
or if 10 ppl with the same gear on 10 chars are playing the result is the same

to 2nd the same would happen if you only have 1 acc i can still backstab you in pre emp and when you rush in i just clean up from behind no need to be in emp as my mates can handle that(also i usually can t even put an alt there bcs i get killed immediatly on the way there most of the time)

to 3rd i don t get your point tbh i usually "scout" on my main not with an alt

Also i m sorry if i might sound(sounded) toxic but this is just awkward...
(i will also refrain from commenting on any suggestions like this from now on)
Try to improve yourself and not complain about everything you don t like.
i m not complaining either that sinx got nerved so hard with BoS enabled and gvg reduc so i can t kill everyone anymore
Regards Meat

zarkhaev

Sorry to join in the discussion suddenly but Meat, your arguments aren't even remotely related as to why dual clients should be kept enabled in the PVP environment. I think I get the fundamental difference between your philosophical stance on WoE vs. Meer's (which I support). First of all, if you think that "it does not matter if 1 person is dual clienting with the same amount of gears worth of 10 people", it just shows that you don't agree, or rather ignore Meer's point on the importance of teamwork, which you negate by playing all by yourself.
Meer's point is to encourage people to play as a team player first and foremost, this is why he highlighted the importance of "sacrifice" (for the lack of a better term) to you're playing support classes instead of DPS (which I personally disagree since everyone is equally important in a team).

Everyone in this thread who supported this suggestion is moved by the same notion: that the WoE environment should be teamwork, not an individual, where is the fun in that? If you're so keen to keep allowing dual-client, then why not just play it by yourself without any teammates?

Also, this isn't even a complaint to nerf (because it's impossible to nerf someone's skill/ability lol) as it was previously SinX (partly due to SinX doesn't have counter-play too), this is a suggestion on what the WoE environment should march to.

wilchu

That's why players can't decide what needs to be done, since there ir a clear bias.
Is it fair that people have better pc's?
Is it fair thar more people have more time to farm and optimise theis gears?
Is it fair that a guild has more players than the others?
Is it fair that 2 guilds gang up on another one?

Then go and restrict playing people that have a pc over a certified specs:
Then ban people that have more than X average playtime or gears due to luck.
Then put a limit to the players than can be on a guild.
Then make GM's ban those guilds.

I really thought WoE would be better with another competitive guild, but i only see so much toxicity that i don't feel like playing WoE anymore.
Also, gang up to try and "shame" players for having different perspectives is a pretty toxic behaviour ngl.

Wanna make a more "balanced" WoE? Just enable draft, no drama and less biased suggestions.

goujia

wilchu gang up to try and "shame" ? being toxic? Let me ask you a question, who is the first person to start toxicity on a open discussion? please use your eyes and see

just why? just because you can t play 2 chars? Or bcs we beat you up because of that?

if you think that is actually a counter argument or even open to talk/discuss about the topic then I dont think we can even talk in proper manners after all. don't play with fire if you don't want to get burned. you reap what you sow, and stop playing victim card.

we are discussing about "WHY we should Disable Dual Clienting in a Castle for immersive GvG?" if you are against it, then sure, say your reason why, thats what it mean by having open discussion, having something to talk. THAT IS WHAT IT MEAN "having different perspectives". Now think about it yourself, are you trying to have a discussion? or are you just trying to disrespect other people?

zarkhaev

wilchu Can we focus on one issue at hand first? Since this is Meer's suggestion thread on dual client. This is not a slippery slope to 'restrict' intended features (and its limitations) gameplay of Ragnarok Online. Is there any way that Meer was alluding to restrict those you said? No, because the issue at hand is dual client, which in Meer's point of view does not encourage party/team play and punish individuals for misplay/misstep/death/etc.

Yes, there are a lot of problems that need to be addressed but from what I see, this isn't the place. Also, I wouldn't call people in this thread 'ganging up' nor 'shaming' someone for having different perspective(s), it is just the reaction of a particular 'emotional reaction' and basically non-existent arguments for dual-client.

wilchu

goujia
I've stated my arguments on a discord discussion iirc, i've never met someone that can play 2 instances of RO simultaneously, so you're pretty much playing vs 1 char and 1 AFK.

Dual Clienting has been around since i've started playing this game, and i've never seen people so mad about it, but idk.

zarkhaev I mean, Dual Clienting helps with numbers, if you don't have enough people to form a consistent core it's not even worth it to WoE, then Dual Clientig helps with some necessary stuff to play at a "decent" level.

I still stand my point that WoE shouldn't be opened before checking the "Meta".

Also talking about the Dual Client issues it raises some doubts, that's why i stated "usual" WoE stuff (pc performance, numbers, etc...). Since they are kinda similar issues.

If you have more stuff to day about my posts you can try and contact Misco, so they maybe will help you.

balance

should ask why GM event disabled dual client in the first place and why woe dual client is enabled😆

Meer

Okay this is slowly getting out of my hand and I never thought this post gonna be a bloody battlefield like this. Let's stop attacking one another. We are discussing ideas, so put arguments to/against THE IDEA not the person.

Anyone who is against my idea of single client WoE, is free to call me "biased player who only make suggestion to benefit his own guild", toxic player, or whatever you want, the fact is, it doesn't matter at all for me. All I care about is where we are heading towards with our WoE TE.

I want the people who read this post to be able to see this duality of opinions. One side who favors the current kRO WoE version, and the other side's (my post) opinion, who believes in the customization of WoE scene. So this person can break free from the bubble bias and see both sides of the arguments, and actually think for themself, what is the best for MuhRO WoE TE?

In the end it boils down to two simple questions:

Should I force my teammate to multiple client?
Should EVERYONE who plays in MuhRO WoE TE learn how to play Multiclient gaming if they want to tryhard?

Edit Note: anyone who doesn't tryhard in PvP is straight up just griefing their guild 🤣

wilchu

Meer
1.- If you need numbers Dual Client helps a lot since not a lot of people are interested in WoE and even less are interested in TE
2.- You can try multi clienting, upgrading your PC no NASA levels, get a 10x faster internet connection, grind 24/7 to achieve max refines on your gears.

That's why i don't really like WoE guilds, let's just draft so everyone plays with everyone and the biases are less.

Meer

wilchu I'm actually waiting for what kind of suggestions you gonna bring to the table based on that screenshot. I've been curious since I saw the original message 🤣

1.- If you need numbers Dual Client helps a lot since not a lot of people are interested in WoE and even less are interested in TE
2.- You can try multi clienting, upgrading your PC no NASA levels, get a 10x faster internet connection, grind 24/7 to achieve max refines on your gears.

I guess we can safely say, we just agree to disagree. Not every discussion comes to an agreement. In my ideal WoE single client is a mandatory aspect of it, no matter if you are playing with 8 people or 45 people. While you seemed to be "Dual Client okay if there's not enough people".

That's why i don't really like WoE guilds, let's just draft so everyone plays with everyone and the biases are less.

Another food for thoughts questions, how do I determine if someone is biased when pushing changes for WoE?

if I belong to someone who pushed for Box of Sunlight changes, but I'm the SinX main, who will most likely lost a lot by having Box of Sunlight enabled, am I still biased?
If I push for no dual client, but I belong to the guild that doesn't dual client, am I biased?
What if after posting this, I don't play WoE in any guild anymore and retire. Would my statement on this post still biased?
How do you determine if someone is genuinely pushing ideas for the better WoE and not biased one?
Let's say a GM suddenly disabled dual client in WoE scene, just like how Box of Sunlight enabled without any voting happening. Can you also say that the GM is biased towards Meeer? Cause I definitely do NOT want this to happen.

You guys can always have opinion about me, but please never drag any of the Dev Team into "Yea they are biased towards this person XYZ", cause the moment this kind of accussation without proof is happening. We are slowly killing the server.

This is cause I was in WoE Commissioner on the closed server, I also marked someone as "the favorite child" and the GM seems to favor his opinion too much compared to other commissioners. I always believed that this person is biased and pushing changes in favors of his own guild. Till 2 years passed, the moment he departed from WoE Scene, the WoE scene also died. He was the true commissioner that started the idea of Draft WoE. He genuinely pushed ideas that benefit the masses, but I misunderstood his intention, cause he belonged to a certain guild. I genuinely feel bad that I didn't take my time to understand this person. I wish I could've make PvP contents where I would just talk with him like a PodCast version, on every single decision he makes just to understand, the way he thinks, and why he think certain changes were needed to be done.

Being Keyboard Warrior feels way too easy and we tend to attack one another without ever treat the other person like a person. That's why my aim for MuhRO, whoever gets the crown of being PvP Director. You better get yourself ready to get into my PvP Podcast 🤣

wilchu

Meer

I'm actually waiting for what kind of suggestions you gonna bring to the table based on that screenshot. I've been curious since I saw the original message 🤣

I've participated in some discussions on the PvP Discord giving my two cents. Also i can't suggest stuff since i don't know the ceiling of this kind of WoE since it's my first Trans WoE on Renewal mechanics. My "field of expertise" is pre-re WoE.

I guess we can safely say, we just agree to disagree. Not every discussion comes to an agreement. In my ideal WoE single client is a mandatory aspect of it, no matter if you are playing with 8 people or 45 people.

I'm genuinely interested on meeting in the middle, and then with that starting point get to whatever makes the WoE enviroment more healthy.

While you seemed to be "Dual Client okay if there's not enough people".

Not having not enough people is one of the reasons why WoE eventually dies. Having closed groups for just "our people" only works towards eventually losing people, it can be due to bad timezones for some players, players getting IRL commitements or just people that don't feel like playing anymore.

if I belong to someone who pushed for Box of Sunlight changes, but I'm the SinX main, who will most likely lost a lot by having Box of Sunlight enabled, am I still biased?

Yeah, kinda. Since the suggestion came after more sinx's on the opposing guild started to show up, but it wasn't before.

If I push for no dual client, but I belong to the guild that doesn't dual client, am I biased?

Yes, because you don't use it and affects the playstyle of other people, and not your guild.

What if after posting this, I don't play WoE in any guild anymore and retire. Would my statement on this post still biased?

Yes, i can say X class is too weak because i main it or Y class it's too strong because it counters whatever i'm playing, if you keep playing or you leavo it doesn't change that.

How do you determine if someone is genuinely pushing ideas for the better WoE and not biased one?

Mostly exposing the "problem". Let me put it as an example: I say all the vehicles are bad because it pollutes.
Are vehicles only bad? It's just one side, you are just exposing stuff for only the bad side.

Let's say a GM suddenly disabled dual client in WoE scene, just like how Box of Sunlight enabled without any voting happening. Can you also say that the GM is biased towards Meeer? Cause I definitely do NOT want this to happen.

No no no, i won't say the GM is biased, just lazy. If you want to make changes i need evidence. For example buffing or nerfing a class, i need the numbers and an explanation of why. But i need to see the thought process and the test numbers.

You guys can always have opinion about me, but please never drag any of the Dev Team into "Yea they are biased towards this person XYZ", cause the moment this kind of accussation without proof is happening. We are slowly killing the server.

I never accused the Dev team of being biased, just the players suggestions.

Being Keyboard Warrior feels way too easy and we tend to attack one another without ever treat the other person like a person.

I'm no keyboard warrior nor i intended to attack anyone, english is not my main language so some things might be misinterpreted due to the translation, if you got that impression i'm genuinely sorry.

I've just seen a bunch of servers die to the lazyness and nonsense implementations.

Also i don't really like posting in the forums since i don't really like writing a lot of stuff that might be misinterpreted or rub the wrong way to people. So if you want i'm more than willing to discuss stuff over DM in Discord, if you're willing to talk just PM me, i'm easy to find.

Muh

Stop attacking each other. Discuss the topic.
I've deleted some posts that didn't add anything to the discussion.

Also note, that helper/mods here are also just simple players that offered to help our team in some way.

On the topic:
I see the issue with having backup teams/characters because of multi clients. That's definitely not a direction we should pursue.