Alice in Portaland feedback and suggestion thread

StellarFlare

They're empty and serve no purpose other than waste time.

StellarFlare

This limits skill like Sprint, making them useless and is just an unfun mechanic for anyone that doesn't have a snap skill.

Is it just there so people don't skip past your unfun instance because it was made without having level design in mind?

cruro

As much as it pains me as an inquisitor player to say, but I'd say either all movement skills need to be disabled too (snap, backslide, frontslide, etc..), or just don't nerf movement speed (which I'd definitely prefer).

I feel like using consumables for faster movement speed should be a viable option to compensate for whatever players may lack in dps or ability to conquer the mazes.

Choi

One of the main features that I wanted from this server is collaborative late-game content, and this instance does provide that, and I think some of the suggestions remove some of the collaborative aspects of it. I agree with Choco that the main reason why people are having issues is lack of team composition, communication, and experience. I think that once groups are able to do these better, they'll find that the instance isn't as difficult as it may initially seem.

Dispel from mobs - I'm against this because this is part of the collaborative aspect. If you get dispelled, that should be called and buffers should rebuff the carries. I also don't agree with the premise that dispel should be exclusive to bosses and special enemies.
Movement Speed from Alice Madness - I also think this will take away from the collaborative aspect. From my understanding, the movement speed debuff was added because players could easily bypass the mobs and not have to work together to clear the mobs to get through. If they can just bypass the mobs, all it would be would be a rush to the end. I also don't think that we need an option to compensate for whatever players may lack in dps since from my understanding this is supposed to be a late-game instance, and even then you don't need full-end game gear or mvps to clear it or beat the boss.
No opinion on the empty maps.

I think my main suggestion that would make it more fun would be to make it so that the warps are random, but people are warped together if they go in together within 3 seconds (similar to the red map). It is tough if you get warped into mobs by yourself or with only physical or only magical members. So I think this will increase collaboration and make it more enjoyable. Though I'm not sure how hard that is to code. This will make it quicker for everyone to get to the end though so it may need some compensation by making it require more warps to get there.

Mercurial

LAC

If you read the posts above, people have been suggesting ways for workarounds regarding the rng portal so that we all could find a way to meet halfway while maintaining the challenge this endgame instance provides.

Choco As improvement for others i might suggest adding a lower pity for the 1st maze portals or some other mechanic that shortens the time some people have to walk in the 1st maze.

Choi I think my main suggestion that would make it more fun would be to make it so that the warps are random, but people are warped together if they go in together within 3 seconds (similar to the red map). It is tough if you get warped into mobs by yourself or with only physical or only magical members. So I think this will increase collaboration and make it more enjoyable. Though I'm not sure how hard that is to code. This will make it quicker for everyone to get to the end though so it may need some compensation by making it require more warps to get there.

Mercurial I do agree with Choi's suggestion regarding the warping a certain amount of people within a timeframe to keep everybody alive. If I'd like to add to this suggestion, how about diversifying the mobs (ele lvl 4/ranged dmg only/phy dmg only)? Since everyone can move in groups, I think this would still align to the theme of "togetherness" as you navigate this instance.

Emrys

Choi
I can see the idea of making the warp work by warping ppl that enter within some short timeframe as a group could help alleviate some of the issues with the randomness of the warp. However, I am still of the opinion that the complete RNG needs to have some pity. As of time of writing, it appears that people just kick unlucky members to proceed which seems counter productive to the collaborative aspect.

On this topic however, I also think that more information could be highlighted in the wiki or patch notes regarding how this instance is expected to work. For instance, in the most recent patch "fixed to account players on hardmode floor 2 as to be part of the party at final stage's party check" which basically means now all players in the party needs to be at the Alice NPC before the PL can talk to NPC to proceed to MVP room. However, the previous behaviour in which we tried was that we can start warping from the red map as long PL reaches the portal and talks to the NPC to warp everyone in from the red map. Now that we have worked a strategy around this behaviour we are now told that this is a bug and it no longer works this way.

I do not understand why (imho) critical NPC mechanics/behaviour are not explained at all in anywhere that I can find. Among some of the information that I feel would have been useful for players to know and thus strategize for would be (in no order of importance):
1) Portals in the first map are RNG
2) Players need to walk to the two portals in clock room to proceed (first right then left)
3) Red map portal location changes after someone has entered it
4) Everyone needs to be in front of Alice NPC to proceed
5) First phase MVP actually needs to die for phase change to happen while 2nd to 3rd phase trigger is HP at 50%
6) Jabberwock can actually spawn 3 instances of himself if we take too long time (time duration still unknown) to bring his HP down to 50% for change

All of these coupled together with the RNG-ness of the instance itself can make it fairly aggravating imo.

StellarFlare

You say that about dispel because you play AM and AM doesn't get crippled by dispel sir. Remember when dispel worked on reading spellbooks? That's a little more akin to being crippled by dispel. Just because you are hanging out with your buddies calling for buffs doesn't mean that this is good group content. Being ill can be fun with friends.

The movement speed aspect is just to band aid shit design. The only way to make it work if by having someone that can ignore that and scout ahead. The map is so unchallenging that I could just walk to the boss solo and not die. Your team work is just trying to minimize the band aid so it doesn't get in your way as much. Hell, it's faster to just quit and reenter if you enter a wrong warp and it's the spiral corridor one because you'll take 2 minutes in it just to return to start.

In another suggestion: Remove the 1 day limit to run the instance and adjust the item requirements accordingly.

Choi

StellarFlare Just wanted to clarify that I am not the one calling dispels in my party, and I am not only considering AM in regards to the dispel. The members who are calling dispels are generally our meisters and inquisitors, who are heavily impacted by the dispel. Despite this, they enjoy the mechanic and enjoy playing around the counterplay options that exist to prevent it.

Mercurial

I have played both as support (Cardinal) and buff reliant DPS (Meister) on this dungeon and I definitely enjoyed playing both roles even with the chaos associated along with the runs.

Yes, dispel is annoying because it removes 90% of my buffs but it also gives the other damage dealers something to do to support the current class dealing damage to the boss. Additionally, it also removes the status ailment the boss gives as the fight ensues. So you have to communicate with your party members what needs to be done at the current moment in time - buff, clear cats, damage, tank etc.

The movement speed aspect is a fun addition to keep everybody together. Yes some classes get separated from the group as they enter/exit the portals but it adds both tension and coordination with everyone with the party. This is an end game instance, you're supposed to bring your own consumables - tokens, pots, scrolls, etc. and be geared enough to be able to tank a few hits yourself. You can always ask your party members to walk with you, heal you, and res you as well.

I do agree with Choi's suggestion regarding the warping a certain amount of people within a timeframe to keep everybody alive. If I'd like to add to this suggestion, how about diversifying the mobs (ele lvl 4/ranged dmg only/phy dmg only)? Since everyone can move in groups, I think this would still align to the theme of "togetherness" as you navigate this instance.

No mvp cards needed to clear this run. With the right composition and proper communication, clearing this instance is assured.

LAC

I really don't understand how entering a random portal adds in any way to a good experience. It's just there to waste your time and resources. Why do you guys like to simp for gambling so much?

LAC

Mercurial
Those workarounds wouldn't have to exist if the 'rng' aka gambling mechanic didn't exist. Do you remember glast heim challenge mode and how it splits the party in two places? That is good design. They could do that but in a number of max party members/2 places, while keeping the mob range/magic immunity.
The empty areas, the slower movespeed, and most of all the rng portals add nothing.

StellarFlare

Dudes, you guys are literally confusing having a good time with your friends with good instance design
The movement speed, the dispel, the random warps that separate and add nothing but more walking don't bring anything good to the experience of the instance. They're just half assed measures put in place because the instance would literally be a walking simulator otherwise with how lacking in actual mechanics it is outside the boss room. Slow movement speed just makes it so people get frustrated while some classes completely ignore the limitation and make the instance actually possible because they can play it normally.
The empty maps are just a snore fest.
The dispel mechanic on ads being instant and affecting people indiscriminately is crippling to some classes and forces extra consumption of consumables and more time spent rebuffing people over and over and over because that's what dispel does when you put it in normal mobs so liberally.

All you're telling me is how much you're communicating and having fun with your friends in the strongest guild in the game with the highest dps in the game and I'm like, do you not see how you're the only ones having fun running this horrible instance? And how part of your fun is just on talking to your friends in VC and figuring ways to circumvent the horrible mechanics present? What will you start saying if they disable snap too? That that way it's more engaging because now everyone needs to scout together and this is a group building exercise?

Choco

no issue if they disabled snap. we have done it without snap before.

Emrys

Apologize for the necro and upcoming wall of text, but I think there were some good points brought up here and I would also like to bring this feedback thread into attention again. After running almost daily 1-2 runs for past few few weeks, one of the most aggravating key mechanics that truly stand out are the RNG portals in map 1.

Based on our party experience, we are seeing 10-15 tries in map 1 to RNG to the next phase (which generally takes up easily 9 to 15 minutes of the allocated 20 minutes for full rewards (30 for halved) time period) to to proceed to map 2 which happens on average to at least 1 to 2 person every 2-4 runs. This has resulted in the previous strategy of kicking party members that are stuck due to something out of their control so that the other party members can proceed.

Even if say they do manage to finally get past say on the 10th attempt, mobs may have wandered or possibly respawned? (behaviour cannot be confirmed) in previously cleared regions resulting in further delays to said player. For instance, in a recent run one of our party members that took 15 tries to get past phase 1 got ambushed in a region that was cleared earlier.

Perhaps there are some key mechanics that we are missing but we certainly are unable to figure it out after so many runs. We tried going into different portals which do not appear to help with proceeding to the next phase, and going into portals together don't necessary mean players are warped to the same spot together (support players may be separated from dps players while navigating thru the maze). Personally I do not understand why RNG is one of the core instance mechanic that can determine the success or failure of the run with no real way to mitigate/strategize against (as far as I can tell) other than getting lucky I suppose.

The instance itself is vibrant and does has some nice themes and interesting mechanics, but RNG certainly does not add to it. I do hope that other players can chip in their experiences and perhaps the GMs can also provide some explanations on the feedback as well.

chup1n

shoutout to myself for very bad RNG

Aqua

This instance has such a bad design, I'm sorry for the people who designed it but that's how it is. It feels like an individual instance until the MVP room (which is really just a DPS statcheck). Before the MVP room I don't even see like half of my party, it DOES NOT feel like a party instance at all.

There are a lot of issues with this instance. If not for the crazy amount of zeny I can generate from farming the instance daily I would never touch this instance, at all. As compared to other servers I've played in (Nova) I would still keep doing instances regardless of the zeny I could generate at the end of the run, as long as I had fun playing with my friends or even with random players.

Which is another issue for this instance. Considering that this instance has a lot of things that can go wrong with an unorganized party, it's very exclusive for only a small group of players. I could never see myself recruiting a random player for this instance unless I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY desperate. I understand the importance of having an organized party but this just feels extreme, having a 1-day CD isn't helping either. Once you F up the run, you won't have another chance until the next reset OR unless you have multiple characters.

Which brings me to my other suggestion, custom instances should have no CD, people should be able to run it as much as they want/can without worrying about the CD if they fail or F up the run. This would also remove the exclusivity of organizing parties for this and future custom instances.

Meer

Aqua

Which brings me to my other suggestion, custom instances should have no CD, people should be able to run it as much as they want/can without worrying about the CD if they fail or F up the run. This would also remove the exclusivity of organizing parties for this and future custom instances.

I'm not really a PvM master, but I can give a really good solution for this, as this is how top tier MMORPG like Final Fantasy XIV deals with this. Basically the end game contents in FFXIV doesn't have cooldown. You can go inside the party million times a day, but the rewards, can only be taken 1x weekly (on the real top tier content), but they later unlock this reward as the content being obsolete (after 3 to 6 months).

By doing this they unlock:

Ability for the players to "progress" the fight. A.k.a testing roster out, checking if healing is okay here and there, testing out the DPS, etc etc.
Still rewarding the playerbase if they "cleared" the fight, but can still help out friends who want to "progress" the fight, without losing the chance of getting reward.

But yea just my two cents, I rarely play PvM anymore in MuhRO either way 👀

Choi

Meer I like this idea too, and like Aqua mentioned it should be daily. I think the only issue is that the mobs in the map drop important loot as well, so someone can repetitively fail the instance to farm the loots. I don't really know if or think that's necessarily a bad thing though. And the players will get to retry the instance multiple times but only get the monster stone/heavy chain once per day.

Aqua

You can go inside the party million times a day, but the rewards, can only be taken 1x weekly (on the real top tier content)

This actually doesn't sound like a bad idea, I like it. But maybe not weekly, make it daily instead. This way people could still commit multiple characters for these custom instances but at least this way people could still help others without risking their own CD for the instance.

« Previous Page