Repeatable uber hard instances with actual useful rewards

kugnij

crybabyhunter

I like this idea. This could bring back party play which we all long for.

howthecookiecrumbles

Yes!!! More party content is a welcome addition. Nightmare Toy Factory is a challenging place

CongaLyne

Please, I am starving for party content

I'm tired of everything being a solo-fest

EvilLumi

CongaLyne You can individually look for people to help. We have plenty of new players who require a personal guide to actually help them through things. Technically, party play, and a social aspect that you're missing. Try it.

lakadema

I like this! +1

kaiakaito

Overall more Party content is lovely
Just need a good overall balancing and good rewards for everyone being active.

So +1 from me

Jilo

+1 from me!

Songofstorms

This could be implemented really well but its a path that needs to be traversed very carefully.

Ive seen many small servers die because of this.

In my opinion, party instances or content that requires party, should have the following criteria as to not alienate others.

The rewards should not be exclusive to it, or should be tradeable. Reason for this is, not everyone is social, and there are multiple timeslots in the server where its very difficult to get a party going. So items should still be accessible by everyone regardless of the timezone they are in.
It should not discourage solo play. A lot of servers who tried implementing such features failed to acknowledge that there are players who likes party content and there are players who doesnt. By making the end game content exclusive to party play will just ruin the experience for solo players and will just leave or quit
The rewards should not be significantly better than when soloing. This goes hand in hand with 1 and 2. MMO players are basically programmed to always gravitate towards the most efficient / effective way to gearing up or progressing their characters, regardless wether its optional, inconvenient, not enjoyable. If party play has significant rewards, even if its optional, even when there are other less optimal places, the solo players will always feel theyre being forced to do the party content due to it being the most efficient.
It should be difficult enough to provide a challenge but easy enough to pull off with a public group. Reason for this is to avoid gatekeeping. If the instance is hard enough that it requires insane gears, then people would gatekeep new players from joining which will breed toxicity.

While party play is definitely part of every mmos, with small servers such as this one, its very difficult to pull off. Introducing party required content, will inevitably lead to group of people forming "cliques". This can lead to monopolizing the rewards if they are exclusive to that content. Also it can ruin the whole welcoming vibe of this server.

But all this is easily avoidable though as long as the party content is implemented properly. The right balance in difficulty, rewards and enjoyability can lead to better optional content for those who are tired of soloing.

MadMonkey

crybabyhunter I kinda like this idea (the thought process behind it more specifically).
But the "repeatable" part bothers me a bit.
For some reason, it triggers all kind of warnings in my mind.
Like, I can't help but feel this good idea could very quickly turn to shit depending of how it is implemented/how the community interacts with it.

Songofstorms Now I agree with a lot of this.
But there is one point that makes no sense to me however:

Songofstorms The rewards should not be significantly better than when soloing

The rewards should definitely be a lot better when grouping.
As should be the case for all the content tbh.
RO is and always have been a social MMORPG with a strong emphasis on party play.
More and more, they make it soloable, ditching part of the game's DNA.
And that's good for those that forgot they're playing an online game/can't be arsed to socialize a little, as party play is no longer mandatory.
You have the possibility of soloing the game.
But then, you absolutely shouldn't expect to get as much from the content than a full party.
Period.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Equating this with "forcing" party play is just a bogus take.
It's just common sense.
Basic game design.

lakadema

Could also add some additional tweaks like after the first try, the mvp drop rate goes down to .01 instead of .04 in order to prevent infinite loop farm up to an extent.

just an idea.

Songofstorms

MadMonkey while its true that mmos are conceptualized with party play in mind, its very difficult to put it in actual gameplay when the server only has a handful of players online at a time it could be very difficult for new players to insert themselves into established groups, which can lead to feeling of being alienated.

If you give a gamer a significantly more efficient way of doing things, they will always feel forced to take that route. Example of this is geffenia before nerf, it was the most efficient zeny farming method on the server, it is not mandatory to do it, and yet people complained they are being forced to do it because its most efficient.

Same thing with party play. I never did say it should be equal to a solo player, but it shouldnt be significant as to make people feel they are losing out A LOT if they choose not to partake in that activity. Its okay for it to have better rewards, or even exclusive rewards, but never to the point of making solo players fall far behind. Emphasis on the A LOT, while I do agree group contents should yield better rewards than solo, the gap shouldnt be huge as it will make people feel forced.

A server with 150+ players online is just not big enough for a game to centralized everything in mandatory group content, and while the group content isnt technically mandatory, if it offers significantly better rewards than not doing it, people will still feel forced to do it.

And maybe this is just me, but for me, private servers like this are usually more of a pick up and play game than a game that requires full dedication. Its more of like diablo4 , while eternally only and you can socialize, its fun gameplay lies on the mindless farm looking for that uber unique drop (mvp card) than an actuall mmo like WoW or FF14.

But all this is just an opinion of a person with social anxiety, if it will actually help boost the server's popularity and success, then i wish muh and ice all the best! Ive been to a lot of servers and this by far has the best community, and i think it deserves more success.

Vorpal

But the "repeatable" part bothers me a bit.

Generally, instances are already repeatable since it's so easy to clone the same build to different characters. There should be a limit on the number of times per day that the same master account can get the instance rewards and/or enter the instance then it'll be OK.

MadMonkey

Vorpal An actual good compromise.
Not really in line with the "repeatable" instance idea tho.

As for the build/class infinite copy/pasting, I'm well aware of this.
I'm also aware it is something rarely (if ever) actually done by the vast majority of players.
Mostly only the tryharder kind.

CongaLyne

EvilLumi I've helped tons of new players, that doesn't mean I'm playing endgame dungeons with randoms.

They're two completely unrelated things.

EvilLumi

CongaLyne You stated what's the point of making builds if you can't show it off? they're quite related to helping people and guiding them personally through content, showing them npcs, etc, because it's that social aspect you've been talking about. Unless, all you want to do is, show off and let people envy? Not sure what you're looking for here, but I seem to have enough social time where I am currently, and quite satisfied with the conversations, the progress, and just overall happiness. What are you looking for exactly?

MadMonkey

Songofstorms Well, I think it all comes down to differing notions on how we play/see the game and where lie our respective priorities.
Nothing is really wrong in what you say per se.
It just refers to a mindset I do not possess and can't recognize myself (and some of the peeps I'm actually playing with) in.

Some examples:

Songofstorms If you give a gamer a significantly more efficient way of doing things, they will always feel forced to take that route

Kinda true.
But at the same time, I know of quite a number of players that never even stepped a foot in Geffenia.
I myself certainly did not (and yes, I knew about that meta).
Because I'd just rather play the game the way I want to, "efficiency" be damned.

Songofstorms if it offers significantly better rewards than not doing it, people will still feel forced to do it

Same thing here.
It's all about the mindset.
Might as well let any dreams of a ressurgence in party play rot and die if encouraging it would make part of the community feel so pressurized they'd start partaking in it under a non existing duress despite having no real interest in doing so.
Because I know from experience that someone that doesn't really want to party is liable to not even put the minimum of effort in actual teamplay their group should expect of them.
Which would make it a win-win situation for literally noone.
A bit of a cynical take perhaps, but not just for the sake of it.

Songofstorms all this is just an opinion of a person with social anxiety

I admit this is something I cannot relate with.
In fact, I can't even see (let alone understand) the point in playing an online game as if it was a solo one.
So all of this might just be my personal bias shining through (it very likely is even).

On another note (but not really):

CongaLyne I'm just glancing over the discussion but I think the current discussion is "forcing" party play in a solo focused server?

CongaLyne There's definitely a demand for party play but with almost all content allowing and rewarding soloing as the optimal strategy to earn rewards, there's very little reason to go through the trouble of organizing a group of people to play with

I think it's part of the problem actually.
It's only a solo focused server because most peeps would rather play solo than not.
That and Gravity enabling/rewarding it.
This is exactly why "forcing" party play by making it the most optimal option is the only way to go forward.

CongaLyne I don't want to see a repeat of what alice did where a source of melee, magic & ranged dps is mandatory, but rather just monsters who are so absurdly durable that you need multiple sources of damage output to reasonably drop their health down

I think that'd be the worst way to go about it actually.
Definitely the less interesting one.
Might work tho.

Kings-Avenue

I think if depths1 and 2 are a thing, alice twisted is a thing, I don't see why "uber" hard party dungeons should not, an easy way to do that is to give mobs the singular vulnerability like in ATM, image going glast heim but needing at least a magic dps, ranged dps, melee dps, a tank and a healer AT LEAST.

I don't think in the entire time I've played muh it's been hard to find a party with 5 people, it doesn't necessarily have to be uber hard, just promote party play to me

CongaLyne

I'm just glancing over the discussion but I think the current discussion is "forcing" party play in a solo focused server?
Ignore my comment if I'm completely wrong here but I think it'd be healthy to have some areas where party play is optimal and others where solo play is optimal.

There's definitely a demand for party play but with almost all content allowing and rewarding soloing as the optimal strategy to earn rewards, there's very little reason to go through the trouble of organizing a group of people to play with if soloing is faster & more rewarding for most content.
I don't think all solo areas should be removed, that'd murder the player base, but the main reason I log on these days is to play with other people or update my vendors.

Party content would be a huge boost from me, besides, what's the point of having awesome builds if you can't show them off to anybody?

I don't want to see a repeat of what alice did where a source of melee, magic & ranged dps is mandatory, but rather just monsters who are so absurdly durable that you need multiple sources of damage output to reasonably drop their health down.

CongaLyne

MadMonkey One thing which comes to mind with having melee/ranged/magic be forced is it lets people alt-client easier since it's easy (albeit expensive) to dps on one char then switch to another one when it's needed, rather than requiring multiple DPS sources go off at once which is harder to do (if at all possible) as one person; although this is less an argument and more an idea I had thinking about the topic.

CongaLyne

Also another point, if you make a path of least resistance then chances are players will follow it.

Why slog through an impossible to solo instance for ages when you can clear it with a party quickly for similar rewards?
Make partying easier than going solo and people will start forming parties.