Autumn event too difficult, not newbie friendly

mixtilly

I've played through the event a few times now, and honestly, the high difficulty has my friends and me not wanting to even participate. We are not end game geared, not even close. We're casual players and have only been here for a couple of months.

First off, the sentinels are difficult and annoying to try killing. They have high hp with plant protocol, but the worst part of it is they run away when you're trying to attack. I can live with the high hp. I can't live with only being able to get a few hits and then needing to chase them down. The only classes I see doing well are end game geared magic classes, like comet AMs. Bare minimum, it would make it better if they would target you when you attack, like cowrings.

Then there's the whole Moon Goddess fight. I do like that it's a raid style battle requiring everyone to work together to defeat her. It's a very classic MMO feeling. The wiki page made it sound like there are newbie friendly options for participating, with options to load the turret and kill minions, but I've found that's not the case. It's great turret ammo is in fixed spawns so it's easier to find, but I feel ammo respawns way too slowly considering the number of people trying to grab it. The minions make it absolutely miserable to be there. They're too strong. They hit way too hard, way too fast, and frankly, it's obscene that they cast earthquake. If someone without top tier gears is unfortunate enough to end up in the middle of a group of minions, they're dead in 2 seconds. They make it difficult to even try grabbing turret ammo. If you don't die right away, you get hitlocked and can't even move. I've burned through around 100+ golden syrups each time I've participated, and still die multiple times, which is ridiculous. The minions need to be nerfed for the sake of newer players trying to participate. I can't speak much to the goddess herself, since I don't even try to touch her, but seeing as I've seen the fight fail twice already, it may be worth considering lowering her hp a bit. It does feel like finding the mirrors can be a huge hurdle at times, so I would suggest giving the mirrors some fixed spawn points they may appear at to make this a little less of a problem.

I have no problem with the Moon Goddess being a difficult boss for end game players to have a challenge. I love that, it makes things fun for those advanced players. However, other parts of the event need to be changed so that newer players can participate more easily. I like the premise of this event, it seems like it could be fun if I could actually fully participate. Honestly, I just find it frustrating and discouraging to participate. I want to participate and have fun, but at my level, I can't. I know I'm not the only person unhappy with how difficult the event is. Please consider making some changes for the sake of newer and lower level players.

myntsu

Agreed on this.

Although using Teleport and @go 52 fixes the "having to deal with the mobs" (just teleport around, hit @go 52 when you get the ammo/mirror), it feels like it lacks the essence of balanced design for "everyone".

Speaking for the boss itself, I think it's fine. If it's a whale challenge, or end-game, it's fine. Newbies can still recollect the rest.

jinbou

First off, the sentinels are difficult and annoying to try killing. They have high hp with plant protocol, but the worst part of it is they run away when you're trying to attack. I can live with the high hp. I can't live with only being able to get a few hits and then needing to chase them down. The only classes I see doing well are end game geared magic classes, like comet AMs. Bare minimum, it would make it better if they would target you when you attack, like cowrings.

I don't understand the problem with sentinels. Isn't them being plant protocol exactly what makes it so endgame players don't have an advantage? Its not difficult or expensive to make a build that can autoattack or spam skills quickly, and most standard builds should be good enough for it anyway I feel like…

mixtilly

jinbou I have 0 problems with them being plant protocol. What I have a problem with is the fact that they have high hp and run away from you. It makes it difficult and tedious to kill them, especially when there's a huge number of them on the map. I wouldn't care as much if they either had less hp or if they would target you while you're attacking. I've watched plenty of other lower level people struggling to chase down and kill a single sentinel.

Muh

mixtilly You have to note that rewards are measured by the total amount of killed sentinels by everyone. It doesn't matter how many you killed as long you helped by attacking them or by supporting the goddess fight in any available way. It doesn't matter who performs best as long as all together "defeat" the event.

mixtilly

Muh It's nice that we all get rewards for beating the goddess, however, everything I mentioned above makes it not a lot of fun for lower level players to participate in the first place. It gets frustrating not being able to find ammo and having the minions being impossible to deal with at a low level. Overall, I've found myself getting more frustrated with the event than having fun trying to participate. The rewards are barely incentive enough to join and deal with all of that. This event feels like it heavily favors end game players and is not for everyone. I want to enjoy this, I really like the concept, but as it is now, it's no fun as a low level player.

jinbou

I've watched plenty of other lower level people struggling to chase down and kill a single sentinel.

the reason they're struggling is not that they're low level or poor though, they can easily make a character (or optimize one of their existing characters) in a way to make it better for the events, it's not difficult or expensive to build… Hell, compared to the plant protocol mobs of the spring/winter events, the sentinels in this event is so much easier. Any character with some cheap gears will perform as good as any endgame character, if not better, as long as it has a multi-hit skill to spam or fast autoattacks etc

MadMonkey

Makes it what?
The 3rd out of the last 4 seasonal events to be heavily skewed toward autoattack/multihit builds?

Have yet to participate so I don't really have a strong opinion on this.
Just to say, some of the complaints I see there were already raised on some past events.
Glad to see nothing was learned.

jinbou Sure, but at the same time, is it an event for everyone or just a few?
Building chars isn't half as hard as some make it to be.
The problem is why would you have to optimize a particular build just to have a bit of fun in an event?

jinbou

MadMonkey It's just the initial phase with the sentinels that is skewed towards those builds, the rest is mostly a raid boss battle for normal dps builds.

Also I don't understand how you can say "nothing was learned" if you haven't even tried it, not nice for the people that worked on it.

The sentinel phase is a really small part of the event. it's been getting cleared in like 2 minutes most of the time so far anyway, the main issue has been that they are dying too quickly actually. (They did multiply out of control one or two times yes, but it's only been one day since the event was implemented, we haven't even fully figured out the mechanics yet).

In the previous events people were making specialized autoattack/autocast AC/WH builds because we kept failing the event the first few days. This one is not like that at all, the hp of the trees is already very low compared to the plant protocol mobs of the previous events, they die very quickly. There's definitely no need to make a new char for just one relatively short phase. You can if you want to solo carry it, but its definitely not needed, just attack with the best multihit skill you have and it'll quickly be cleared with the help of other players.

I'm fine with the sentinels running away too, its just a gimmick that makes things different, the way an event should be, otherwise it'd just feel like a standard monster farm session. So what if we need to run around a little. Monsters' AI being utilized properly so they're not as dumb is a good change of pace if you ask me. Reminds me of the mobs in Asgard Legends that were kiting the players, attacking us with strong range/magic attacks from distance and running away when we tried to get close. This one is not nearly as mean :p

Josh

I dont see an Problem with the Event. What most of you dont considere, is the factor ,,Teamwork".

The Sentinels are not meant to be killed by a single individual but by the whole Server.

I agree that 5005 Sentinels in Yuno might be a bit… overwhelming… but still my point is valid.

You dont need high Equipment to participate in the events. But its a wise decision of you make 3 Event Chars. 1 is an melee 193 autohit/skill spamm Assasin, 1 is an range 193 autohit/skill spamm Hunter and 1 is an Elemental Master in case Magic is supperior. Not a big deal and I had my share of fun with this 3 Char Setup for most of the events 😃

All 3 Event Chars are set up with 130 Vit and Max RES/MRES to survive longer. No problem at all 😃

Edit: I would +1 for the suggestion to make the Trees attack you when you attacked them.

MadMonkey

jinbou To be fair, I wasn't really dissing the event in itself.
Rather, part of the design behind it.
As I said, I've yet to participate, so I can't really speak about its particularities.

I'm merely pointing that this isn't the 1st time some of those complaints have been made (and I've been around for quite some time now).
The fact they're still being brought up is literal proof nothing was learned.
It wasn't meant to be nice, just an observation.

mikukitsune When I was new, I was quite stingy with zeny still that optimizing a build on an event where we're supposed to have "fun" would make it do the opposite

This is what I'm talking about.
This is an event.
And sure, building a specific char for that express purpose isn't that hard a thing to do in the grand scheme of things.
But, why should you have to in the 1st place (esspecially when it so heavily favors a particular build over all others)?
Shit is almost mandatory at this point.

mikukitsune

Imo kinda mixed bag right now. Kinda understand why it's not newbie friendly for the Raid Boss event. Optimizing builds would most likely be normal for the players who reached end game, or at least can comfortably farm up enough zeny that they can sidetrack a bit. When I was new, I was quite stingy with zeny still that optimizing a build on an event where we're supposed to have "fun" would make it do the opposite. Also I'm unaware if there are actually guides for autocast WH/Chasers, didn't look them up since I'm an AM, but it would be something out of knowledge for those new to RO and didn't know those builds in the first place.

The tree sentinels part +1 on them attacking you instead of running away, that just makes them really annoying. Though I did notice some players started to corral them into corners and whacking at them from there. Or if you're in prontera, they suddenly start attacking the dummies for some reason.

The raid goddess fight is brutal I agree - though I think it's somewhat normalized now? Need some more days to check. For the ammo thing, I think it's mainly because people camp the spawn - I've seen them in the ammo spots just standing still when I tried to nab some too. AFAIK - Mirrors do have fixed spawn points, so no issues with that.

The minions are the biggest hurdles yeah. Even some end game players would find it hard to survive 4 simultaneous earthquakes (unless gtb lul) - but as the goal of the event is to just kill the goddess, you can just poke them a bit and then fly wing away when you see them casting earthquake, or just accept the death (not sure if death penalties apply in neustadt), and @go 52 again to spawn back in neustadt with no loading screens, I personally have this on my shortcut keys due to cluckers event too.

They make it difficult to grab ammo - but that's pretty much their entire point of this. Players who have anti plant protocol would focus on killing the minons, while others would try to get the ammo - I've seen people group the minions up together too so that people with AoE can kill them faster.

I don't really have anything to say with their attack speed, I find it obscenely fast, but its mainly their spider web that sticks me to the ground, and at that point I just fly wing away.

Honestly speaking, just being near someone killing the minons is already a huge help. I always feel happy when someone's near so the earthquake damage spreads to both of us and won't outright oneshot me, so even just by being there you're already helping people clearing out the minions, you could even throw some skills their way to help clear them faster

jinbou

MadMonkey

But… I was explaining how such a specific build char is not needed for this event…

GMIcecold

I agree… The only adjustment that could be good, in my opinion, would be to increase the number of ammos on the map, because:

1- I feel like it can be hard to find ammo, there are too many players looking for too few ammo on the map, which can make things boring for them

2- Since there are complaints about Moon Goddess fight taking too long, if the turret was activated more often it'd slightly reduce the fight duration, which might be good

GMIcecold

An event should be fun for new players and old players, which are already high geared.

And that's what the event does. the first part is doable by every player, even a novice lvl 1/1 can kill those monsters.

What do you expect as monster? A training dummy where everyone stays and hit? come on guys ….

The second part is where you have to play together, high geared dps go for the blue moons and mvp while low players hunt for the ammo and mirrors.
I don't see any problems with the event .

GMIcecold

jinbou

As far as I know, our Scripter increased yesterday evening the ammo spawns.

So there should be more now.

MadMonkey

jinbou But… I was explaining how such a specific build char is not needed for this event…

Fair enough then.
I remain a bit skeptical due to my experience with past events but I'll have to participate and see it for myself someday.

jinbou I don't know why people are stuck on the 1/1 novice example

It was a really bad example to give tbf (even if taken a bit too literally).
Talk 'bout an own goal.

cruro

I actually really like the design of the Moon Goddess fight. With that I mean how both, end-game geared players and newbies, can contribute to the victory.

The only thing I don't exactly love are two things about the sentinels:

That it's possible to prematurely end the event if the players are "too efficient" at killing the first wave. Maybe it's just me not getting the concept, but it seems counter-intuitive that the intended way to play that part is to sit it out at the beginning. It's a little frustrating because some players won't read the chat and simply continue killing, but I'm sure they'll eventually learn and it'll sort it self out.
That they can't be immobilized. To be fair, so far I only tried Cursed Circle but I assume that traps and close confine also won't work (please correct me if I'm wrong). Since most people are going to make the monster flinch with multi-hit attacks, it basically turns into a game of position-bugging, where it becomes difficult to continuously attack them. While I do agree that it might trivialize it a little bit if they can be immobilized, it could be a fun and engaging way to support the sentinel phase even if your char is not too great at multi-hitting. It's something I really enjoyed in the winter event.

mixtilly

Genuinely curious, since it is believed a 1/1 novice can do this event, was this event tested with anyone using a 1/1 novice? If not, I would like to invite everyone here who believes this event is, in fact, newbie friendly, to go create a 1/1 novice and play through both parts of the event. Did it feel effective? Did it seem like it would be an enjoyable way to consistently play the event? If the answer to either of these is no, then I hope some changes may be considered to improve everyone's experience.

I would also like to note never once did I say this event is bad. I love the concept and the creativity of this event. I love that our GMs put in the time and effort to create this event for the community to continue having something fun to do as a break from farming. That's part of what I believe makes this a good server. This is also why I bothered airing my grievances and offering suggestions in the first place. I want to not only enjoy the event myself, but see other people enjoy it too. I've heard similar complaints from both new and old players. I may have been a bit heated because I was fresh off playing the event for the 2nd or 3rd time after it ran as intended, and was pretty frustrated. So I apologize if my words came off as an attack. I don't expect all, or even any, of my suggestions to be implemented. I had only hoped some changes may be considered after receiving some honest community feedback on the suggestions forum. I am quite happy to hear ammo spawn rates have been increased, so thank you for implementing that change. That should improve the goddess fight for everyone.

keiclay

mixtilly Any sane 1/1 novice would rather powerlvl to 99/50 and slap all into agi and dex instead of suffering with low stats during the event.

shiran

I've played the event several times now and this first week, the event has failed to reach the second phase on multiple occasions. I agree with the sentiment many share that the event and the concept itself is fun but needs to be fixed/rebalanced.

Firstly, these are my observations and thoughts on how things can be changed, not an attack or undermine the hard work of the gms. I am making these suggestions because I want this event to succeed and for everyone to have fun.

The Sentinel fight is too strict in its requirements to get to phase 2 of the the event. Players get punished for efficiency if they kill the sentinels too quickly. Even if the players stop and wait for more to spawn in, they might not reach the goal because the Sentinel phase has a 5 minute timer. This is exactly what happened one event time I was a few minutes late to. In fact, this has happened several times now. This strict timing is not the DPS check some seem to think it is because people are actively waiting to let the required amount of sentinels spawn means there is a chance where the event times out and fails if people log in even a few minutes late.

In the case that the required amount of sentinels cannot be adjusted to online player count, 5 minutes may be too short and need to be lengthened if the idea of waiting for more sentinels to spawn is tied to getting as many players online to help kill sentinels and give more time for people to get online.

On a side note, I did try a 1/1 novice for the sentinel phase, and a 1/1 novice with 141 aspd (the base aspd) even as they level does not really do a lot for this phase. They do level as they kill however, but, who has the time to add in stat points in a time gated event? Not me, at least. My apologies for not putting in the work however as when I tried this, the quota for sentinels was not met, which kind of leads me to believe even if every single person coming into the event was a 1/1 novice there is no way they could hit the quota with the slow aspd and the fact that sentinels move away from attacks would make this nearly impossible. I don't even want to imagine how a bunch of 1/1 novices could help with phase 2 in the moon goddess fight as well. A 1/1 novice will just get one shot by the minions. Do you truly want a fresh newbie player going into the event to hope that they got enough ammo drops (that are frequently camped by other players) before the minion summoning phase? Or should they just buy fwings and pray? For if you are just a 1/1 novice you come into the game with about enough zeny to buy ~200 fwings and there is no way a fresh newbie is going to spend ALL their zeny on fwings as I did to try a 1/1 novice. That's just an unrealistic expectation on a newbie, especially if they're new to RO as well because they might not even know what an fwing is.

TL;DR:
1) Sentinels need to aggro back and/or perhaps tele away instead of running away and not aggro
2) Phase 1 being essentially a 5 minute speed run without letting players actually speed run it inferring that phase 1 should last longer than 5 minutes
3) a 1/1 novice is a burden more than they are helpful in this event and if every single person was a 1/1 novice for phase 1 the quota would simply not be met especially when Sentinels do not aggro.
For Phase 2 I frankly have less gripes about it, as I do think that it is a fun world boss raid type of fight and is enjoyable. Some things I would agree need to be changed however, are things like reworking the minions. I personally find that the minions stunlock me more often than not, be it through earthquake or multiple minions going crazy on me with their aspd. While this could be a good point to slowing down players trying to grab ammo, it is a bit annoying especially when you are trying to approach one to kill it.

Along with that, they do a lot of damage! My autocast geared cardi that only has eden gears aside from the autocast items can last a while, but let's revisit that 1/1 novice. Let's assume they joined the event at phase 1 like I did, and for some reason had the foresight to dump all their zeny into fwings (a total of about ~200) and did not use all of that in phase 1, they can jump into phase 2. At the end of phase 1 that I had participated in on my novice, they ended up at level 98. Now, because of the nature of phase 1 I did not place any of my stat points so they are still 1s across the board. With this in mind the now 98/10 novice has a grand total of 535 hp. They are not going to last even 2 hits to the minions should they get that far. Sure they can fwing away or respawn using go 52, but would that be fun? Would being an undergeared novice really be fun especially once minions start spawning?

I'll close this off with I already have friends that have no interest in taking part in the event. Which means even if they are online they won't join in Phase 1. There may be other players that think the same as my friend, so how can we hope to clear phase 1 when there are players that don't even want to bother trying? I think something needs to be changed to give players incentive to try again. So please consider rebalancing the event.

Muh

First of all, we are following all the discussions and we took a few things already and applied it on live servers.

Things that have been adjusted already with the latest changes been applied about 10 hours ago.

Fixed various bugs (e.g. spawn, rewards were misbehaving)
Ammo rates have been adjusted - it's much easier now to kill the goddess via laser only
Sentinel Phase now has a fixed timer and can no longer end too soon even they all are killed

We will also look into make the Sentinels not flinch anymore.

The Sentinels are like the leafs you are trying to catch in windy weather _that's not that easy. I feel it's nice to have monsters act differently in events and not the same everytime. Maybe if we adjusted the movespeed a little this would keep this feeling but be less annoying?