[Discussion] Should we have some difficult added to end-game?

Set_R

Hello friends and not friends xD

Before we start the discussion here, let's try to keep some staples in this topic, ok?

Be polite with everyone
Don't trashtalk or be ironical, this does not help a good discussion
Please add your thoughts too, feel free to add your touch to any proposition written here

So, let's start.

I'm making this post as a player who have reached the end-game on the Server, have pretty much BiS Gear for all my characters and even some MvP Cards. I can farm every single instance/mob in the game, solo or with party. And a player that does not like PvP/Siege, so thats not a end-game to me.

Progression through the game since I moved from my last server I felt like the only think a player needs to be able to do almost all content in the game is: Bypass100%, Nebula and DIM. With this you can pretty much have anything else on other slots thats you will be able to farm every map in the game. And there is were the problem shows up.

Farming end-game mid-eng-game maps should be hard, and should request for more preparation/gearing that is asked for Ragnarok actually. Today a player can easily solo Varmundt, which was supposed to be the harder map on the game. With end-game gears you can even farm Varmundt without a singe buff/consumables and still one-shot mobs, this feels like a poor experience. Clock Tower Basement and Nifflheim 2 can be farmed with very low requirements too, making players able to buy end-game gear within 1 or 2 days of farm only.\

So with all the context given I have some propositions to make:

Add Damage Reduction Aura for some end-game maps, such as CTB, Niff2, Mjolnir, Abandoned Pit 1/2, Snake Nest 1/2. (does not need to be 90% on all maps, 20, 30% is enough)
Swap 90% Aura for 99% Aura in Varmundt, so the map can really be a challenge for end-game players.
Add even more HP to 200+ mobs, so with the Aura we will keep a challenge to the players to 1-hit-kill mobs.
Add some more status and more agressive skills to 200+ mobs, so it won't be that easy to farm those maps, making preparation a must for those, after all, it's end-game.
Make end-game-ish Instances even harder (nowdays CT is a joke for the power creep), add more Aura, more power to the mobs, more agressive skills.
Rebalance some drops, like:
1. CTB nowdays drops all complete version os 200+ weapons and have sky rocket prices to sell for the NPC
2. Lower the drop rate of Bloody Branch and MvP Cards
3. Add more interesting drops to maps like Mjolnir and Twisted Power Plains, so player would have more end-game maps to farm other than CTB and Niff.

Well, I guess this was the first self-brainstorm of ideas, feel free to help in this matter =D

CannonMeat

i know how you feel Q.Q
But i think it would be a bad idea to increase difficulty in general as many players struggle a lot
not all are as fast/know how to play most efficient as some here do.
I d like to have some challenging stuff tho like new custom instances
or maps that feel like bio 5 pre 200 update where you actually have to go in with a party
but designed for 4th jobs

or add seperate maps with powered up monsters that have better drop rates

Set_R

CannonMeat

Custom maps with more rewards and very high difficult levels are not bad idea too.

cruro

Hard disagree on making already established content more difficult.
This will change very little for players that already reached endgame and are seemingly bored, but at the same time it'll just increase the gap towards players that are still climbing their way up in progression. This is pretty much the anti-thesis to how mmo's are usually balanced, where previously-best-in-slot but now outdated gears are usually made easier to obtain, not harder. This way players can catch up and veterans actually have someone to play with without feeling like solo-carrying everything.
Same goes for changing BB droprate/mvp card droprate. These things can't be changed after so many people already benefitted from it unless you also accompany it with a server wipe to restart fresh (which I don't believe many would want).

But that is not to say that I don't sympathize with the need for more endgame content. Though in my opinion the only good path is moving forward and either introduce custom content or revisit this topic before introducing future official content, to make sure rewards are well balanced.

Personally, I think the early- and midgame progression on here is probably the best I ever had on a RO server and I'd be sad to see that ruined. In my opinion, progression will slow down plenty to reach endgame here for the average player, but of course that's subjective.

Set_R

cruro increase the gap towards players that are still climbing their way up in progression.
Which will eventually feel bored too sine reaching the end-game is not a challenge.

cruro This way players can catch up and veterans actually have someone to play with without feeling like solo-carrying everything.
Play with who? Nobody needs party nowdays, will not be a party of 2 will be 2 solo players in the future.

cruro These things can't be changed after so many people already benefitted
Better fix the disaster before it happens, or do you think it's gonna be cool whenever we start seeing MvP Cards at 500m? Useful ones, since trash ones are being sold for 200m already.

cruro Personally, I think the early- and midgame progression on here is probably the best I ever had on a RO server
Probably because it's too easy and it's what you are looking for. But MuhRO sel-categorizes as a Low Rate Server, and nowdays it's progression and accessibility for end-game content/gear matchs high-rates such as ShinningMoon.

Overall there is no reason not to fix the direction things are going now just because they were leading towards another direction before. Better fix now than before the server economy completely vanishes coz everything is just too easy to craft/drop/kill.

MadMonkey

I can only echo what others already said.
Hard disagree.
Those are some of the worst ideas I've seen yet.
Balancing should never be done in reference to top tier players experiences.
That's not how balancing works.
Do understand the feeling of having no challenging content left to do tho.
But that's actually an inherent problem of every game, not necessarily a server issue.
You are an endgame player, obviously nothing is challenging to you.
Your actual gear puts you on a power curve far surpassing that of current content.
What you need is not difficulty, it's content balanced towards it.
Which doesn't exist in the base game so far.

Set_R

MadMonkey Ragnarok used to have a end-game content that was challenging even for eng-game geared players. Actually nowdays RO inverted the situation, before you needed end-game gear to do end-game stuff nowdays when you reach end-game gear you simply ignore end-game mobs, coz they were designed to be killed by early-mid game gears.

Balancing the game should not be foccused on that 10% of the time you pass leveling and geareing for mid-game, but for the majority of the time that the player is in the end-game, which will be the most time a player will be in the game.

Right now even playing 1hr a day, 2 months is more than enough for a player to get: 1x Nebula 1x DIM, 1x Bypass Shadow Set, and it's pretty much anything a player needs to play end-game.

Meer

My end game suggestion called "PvP" 🥰

MadMonkey

Set_R Overall there is no reason not to fix the direction things are going now just because they were leading towards another direction before.

There is actually, that's called consistency.
There is no reason to make the game significantly harder than it is now however, as your experience of it is not the experience of the whole playerbase.

Set_R

MadMonkey

Whenever things are going right, it's called consistency, whenever it's going wrong, it's called stubbornness.

Or do you think it's ok that Bloody Branches are selling for 800k (today maybe 500 tomorrow), that the best weapon in the game can be crafted in 5-6 hours of gameplay only and that the exception for SPL one, the best item in the game e.g. Nebula is can be bought by playing 2-3 hours of farm in a mid-game map?

Any player with a DIM and a Nebula can farm the Value of a good MvP Card in 1 or 2 days, is that an ok progression for you?

For it's ok to consider that 10 to 20 hours is more a good time to reach end-game? Would you say 20 hours is a lot for a MMO (even a busy one) player?

It's not consistency, it's stubbornness.

MadMonkey

Set_R Whenever things are going right, it's called consistency, whenever it's going wrong, it's called stubbornness.

No, actual stubborness would be you not understanding why your ideas are unfair to other players and doubling down on it.

Set_R Or do you think it's ok that Bloody Branches are selling for 800k (today maybe 500 tomorrow), that the best weapon in the game can be crafted in 5-6 hours of gameplay only and that the exception for SPL one, the best item in the game e.g. Nebula is can be bought by playing 2-3 hours of farm in a mid-game map?

Any player with a DIM and a Nebula can farm the Value of a good MvP Card in 1 or 2 days, is that an ok progression for you?

For it's ok to consider that 10 to 20 hours is more a good time to reach end-game? Would you say 20 hours is a lot for a MMO (even a busy one) player?

That, I somehow agree with you.
Gear progression is fairly easy/quick here.
If you have the time/knowledge/hustle that is.
And that's where the hangup is for me.
You have to count with those players that don't know the game as good as you do, do not have as much time to put into the game as you do, or simply aren't as good as you, which you don't seem to do.
Should their enjoyment/experience of the server be tainted/altered because you found it "too easy"?
Do they even find it as easy as you?

So no, hard pass on this suggestion as far as I'm concerned.
And I don't think you'll ever be able to convince me otherwise.

Set_R

MadMonkey And I don't think you'll ever be able to convince me otherwise

You will never convince me that all you want it's an easy progression. It's a private server, 1% of players won't know how to play Ragnarok, and those not used to EP19 and some newer contents they are always getting help to find the most fast way to progress. So this excuse of "player wont know how to progress like you do" simply does not makes a point.

MadMonkey

Set_R It does.
You simply choose to ignore it because you do not agree with it.

EvilLumi

Set_R It actually does. I'm not too new here, and I've fallen far beyond you and everyone else. I can't 1 shot varmundt, and to actually kill anything there in a timely manner, already requires me to play ragnarok hardmode. Your view of things is simply just your view. I struggle beyond belief in venom, and since my time here, I have not finished one venom board quest. This view of 1% scales much larger than you think, because more than 15 people on this server CANNOT do Vardmunt, and won't for a while.

This whole idea of making "end game content" harder is a bit late. The only thing left is customized maps, otherwise, you're benefiting largely for rushing through it and nerding the content, while someone new would not have that opportunity to.

Misao

I always say it. Y'all tryhard this game and then are disappointed there's no more to do.

Regular people struggle to kill - let alone one shot - all the things on those dungeons (nif2 ctb etc). Most people can't make 120m per hour at thanatos, not even 50 hell not even 20... Not everyone plays AM. Not everyone plays meta build for their class. Not everyone jumps straight to endgame and are following a slower progression. Not everyone multi-clients for eden/muh/bsb. And not everyone plays 2-4 hours a day.

Go to any of those maps even th12 you'll find people throughout the day who aren't one shotting the monsters. And there are a lot more you aren't even seeing because they aren't strong enough. And I'm not even mentioning biosphere.

You do not represent the player base. None of the people who comment here. Not even I with my rolling cutter build.

Adding hard content is one thing but making already established vanilla content more difficult for our sake is not fair nor reasonable. CTB and Niff have some mob density balance incoming anyway so that might help achieve what you want.

mseifer

Misao
And not everyone plays 2-4 hours a day

you need to correct it, it's more like 8 to 10

[deleted]

Sheesh, might as well start a new server with those proposal. These will just alienate new player as they will have harder progression. Only endgame people benefit from these, they can sell endgame things more expensive, make their "hard-earned" mvp card more valuable and exclusive.
IMO, just make a harder instance with a reward in increased chance of mvp card of that instance, or if u wanna endgame dungeon with 99.99% reduction propose to make a custom dungeon that give mats to make a costume or something.

StellarFlare

I understand you feel the game is too easy right now, but making things hard for the sake of being hard isn't the way and will just turn people off hard from the content. I see the same thing we were talking when you said that normal monsters should have dispel and I said that would fuck some classes so bad they'd quit, you seem to not understand how certain things are extremely harmful to people that aren't you and double down on wanting a harder experience despite everyone else.

I agree we need more repeatable, engaging, party based end game content. But making it stupid hard for the sake of it, thinking that hard=engaging is the wrong way to design and balance content.

Mae

I'll add my 2 cents and mention that when this server introduced the HP increases that were patched in on kRO official on lvl 200+ maps we had half the players quit. We had to brainstorm a bunch of ideas making the new player experience bearable.

I feel like if you're looking for an actual challenge this is simply the wrong game for you. Turning mobs into damage sponges isn't interesting either, neither is getting fucked over by mobs spamming dispel or reflect effect or whatever.

Outside of that I fully agree with @cruro and @StellarFlare