Tower of Trials Discussion

titano5209

Title: Discussion about tower of trials core mechanics

Description:

This is more a general discussion than a specific suggestion. But i will add 2 suggestion at the end

I think ToT have some core problems that should be solved for a better game experience overall.

At the moment it's a forced party only content due to the Damage restriction mechanics in place. Then it's a quite hard party content, so not for every party to be fair. A random organized party (one that can be done using LFG in about 30 minutes) can reach level 25-26 if well equipped. Which means can get 4 coins as reward (Floors + box)

Now reward its once a week if i understood i right.

So if im a player that strugge to play in very specific times and have to make LFG partys i can make 4 coins a week. Need 5 weeks for a shadow gears piece and a total of 5 months for a full set.

So, i personally think this is bad.

In my opinion reward should be at least daily and players should be able to play it even solo. Because unfortunaly not everyone have a full party ready.

So to keep the suggestions more organized and to make the content future proof (yes, because 5 months for general SG its bad if the skill ones will come out at month number 6), i would like to suggest:

change reward claim to be daily
Remove the damage type restiction Floor mechanics (to also allow sub optimal classes to join groups)

This will allow ppl to farm up to level 25 and make SG full sets in about 1 month using ramdom party or high end gears solo runs.

I wanna say that the Tower its well done and the work of the admins its great, but i think its way too crazy the time and effort needed to forge equips that will eventually be replaced before they even be forged.

Why is this a good idea?
Makes the content actually a better experience

What risks or downsides does it have?
i think none, but probably need to increase cash shop item cost in the special instance shop to avoid abuse.

telu

I don't think that a mmo having content that explicitly requires party play is a bad design.

I'm a solo player like you so I understand the frustration of not having access to every content solo, but it's a good thing that some content in game encourages and rewards players that organize together.

Now is the reward system well balanced? It's too early to tell and imo you shouldn't judge it from the perspective of an unorganized team.

AcidMembrane

This is content for people who have already cleared everything else.

Not all content is meant for everyone.

Just make the special instance coins tradable and it's all good.

Muh

AcidMembrane The things you buy are all tradable, but I'll check the discussions about the coins again for sure.

titano5209

I think you did not get the point of this suggestion.

Thats not about who the content is made for or how hard should be.

The suggestion its about this: let the players play it more and better and rethink some restrictions to let ppl do it even solo (and guess what, solo its even harder usually)

Its not about making it easier, it can stay like that or even be harder. Just lower the cooldown reward time and make it possible to solo (now not possible due to dungeon rules, no due to the players ability)

Imho this content was made for the whole server as a way to implement future shadow gears from now on. So, to me, the time needed to craft is ways too high. Also because its artificial time due to the weekly based reward.

The suggestion was not about how hard or easy it should be.

Last thing: im at the endgame and ppl in my guild are also at the ultra endgame. All agree something its off about some ToT mechanics. So its not new players that asks for some rethinking

Thanks for your imput anyway

Mysto

As a player my main issue with Tower of Trials is that it went from being a limited-time special event (weekend event) where you could expect horizontal progression rewards, to now becoming a form of vertical progression that you need to do week after week if you actually want to get the special shadow gear.

This wouldn’t be such a big problem if the instance itself didn’t take up 4 hours (almost 2.5 hours this week for 50 floors) to complete. Getting a whole party to commit to that much time is already difficult and on top of that, there are moments where you simply can’t contribute because your class or build isn’t suited for that specific floor (Even a bit of lag can easily cause a full wipe).

This also ties into the introduction of the new shadow gear and the special instance coins, which can only be obtained through this instance. In my opinion, there should be an alternative way to acquire them, because not everyone has the time required to grind them properly.

I know that in a couple of week it might not seem like such a big deal, and of course, not all content has to be for everyone, but I think it’s important to also consider the perspective of players who don’t have that much available time, don’t have a regular group to run with, or simply don’t have enough contacts, realistically only three parties on the whole server can farm it consistently. And speaking from personal experience when we finished the run, nobody wanted to do it again anytime soon, most of them described as exhausting.

To summarize: I really think it’s necessary to either implement a way to shorten the time Tower of Trials takes and to add a second method of obtaining these special instance coins even if its really expensive.

titano5209

I wanna add something to the argument that "not all content is for everyone"

To an extent i agree in the sense that there is harder content, easy content, events etc. And ppl can enjoy/play the content they like or have access to.

But we are talking about main content here, such as shadow gears progression that should not be gated behind such a hard cooldowns.
And this kind of content should be open to all players imho.

Personally i enjoyed my 26 floor run with random ppl gathered from LFG and i dont like to recruit only geared ppl but i would like to carry even noobs in partys.
And i would do it everyday if was possible by the reward cooldown.

Muh

Jus keep in mind that feedback is welcome and if we adjust something, it might not be immediately with a next patch or not drastic at first, but don't think we're ignoring it 🙂.

titano5209

Muh Yeah Muh, dont worry 😄. Take your time and thank you for the great work to keep up the server updated💪

crybabyhunter

-1

The shadow gears are “special” for a reason. Therefore not everyone can have them.

hoegenaamd

-1 from me,

Just my opinion but the forced long progression with significatly worthy prize, is the plateau where it might be good to put the veteran/ultra end game players in. Otherwise if there's boredom from having totally nothing more to do(e.g. close to or all mvp cards and all bis equips) or from being in the state of having minimum/no reason to socialize, these demographic might be less inclined to stick around in the server/community. I think 2h-4h per week (usually in the weekend) is fair and efficient to make them log in, be somehow progressing slowly, while they would organizing and socializing lightly in the weekdays for this "long term project". Also the demand for characters with specific damage type are great way for them to moneysink. I myself made a melee character for this purpose (originally my main is magic/range) and spend quite a fortune and time and effort, as it was for the greater good of everyone that runs and plan along with me. And I unexpectedly ended up really like playing with the class (SX). I'd say the potential rewards and the fun are worthy enough for old and veterans players to do these goofy things, that I'd would advice everyone to do it; to be somewhat newbie again and play and relearn again things, and fall in love again with a class.

Tldr I think to keep it like this, by slowing down and timegating ultra end game contents, is a balanced way to keep the community building and making the game somehow relevant. Afterall this is not a race towards a finish, but more about the journey itself. Just my 2 cents

P.s. I'd instantly agree for the proposed change(to somehow make this less time consuming etc) in the case there's newer bis items and end game contents, but for now, no. Currently too many supposedly end game stuff are too easily beaten either by solo or 2-3 other people instead of a full party, for example alice instance hard(could solo it with 2 chars) and i feel it kinda killed the fun and grind.

crybabyhunter

hoegenaamd This is actually very valid, and I'm sure most other end game veterans will aggree.

GM_Icecold

I also played this content, just for the golden eyes costume 😃 And it was fun, even it took us 4 hours of our life, we laught, we failed, we trolled 😃 and guess what somehow it remember me the old times in ET where partyplay was necessary. GOD I miss this old partys, and we had a similiar feeling in TOT. Give it a try guys. I know we are all old now and time limited, but give it a try first 🙂

Mysto

GM_Icecold

I also enjoy that kind of old-school party experience from time to time (as a special event), and I get what you mean about the nostalgia for ET, felt the same first time i did this challenge, also thanks and good job for all the people that make it possible.

But I think the key difference here is that in the first time ToT was released, you could choose to do it for fun or challenge, the rewards were optional or cosmetic (horizontal progression), also it was fresh and a novelty. With this second release, the problem is that now it’s tied to progression (special shadow gear), and that makes it feel mandatory if you don’t want to fall behind, even if the experience itself is fun for some that are already stablished players that plays with a strong core and have enough resources to overcome missing classes/jobs (i even include myself in this small group of players), it gets a different feeling for the rest of the player base.

It’s not about not wanting to play or not enjoying the content, it’s about how sustainable it is for the average player with limited time, limited contacts, or simply bad luck with party composition. I fully agree that it’s great content for groups who can commit, but I just believe there should be alternative ways not just through one long, exhausting instance.

Having fun is one thing, mandatory weekly runs for progression is another.

Akin

Make it to be actually possible to reach higher levels, the damage reduction scaling doesn't make sense. Cutting down the damage by 90% for each phase is way too much by gameplay design standpoint. Also the reward at higher levels doesn't reflect the difficulty spike at all

Most that replied have already tried ToT and dedicating more than 2+ hours for a non-stop intense instance run is just isn't feasible to most players even if it's fun as it's draining. I don't want to add too much but at least make the reward more worthwhile of the time spent and the higher floor difficulty adjusted to actually be possible. Especially be more generous with the rewards at higher floors (50+) for those who are willing to play for 4 straight hours to reach them.

Edit: Maybe something like cutting the damage dealt by half for each subsequent 10 floors would be better. You'd only deal about 0.2% damage (which is still impossible currently) for floor 90+ but at least there is better sense of progression every time you obtain better gear/cards or have better strategy and just generally get good at it. If it is deemed too easy someday (when something like 5th class drop) then just increase the reduction gradually from 50%.

zoraka

-1 If it's difficult to create PT quickly, create a clan/discord, recruit your friends/players and plan during the week just like I did with my friends, this instance really needs greater organization.

Good luck!!

titano5209

zoraka Keep in mind your experience with this game it's not the reality all the other players have.

Some players may have real life and it's harder to organize party with specific endgame ppl.

The content it's fine, just need less cooldown on reward so more players can make lower level partys, play it daily and slowly catch up.

This thinking of yours, in my personal opinion, it's way to selfish and you give for granted that every player have your schedule/free time.

Gears progression it's something everyone should have access to in a reasonable time. And If i undestand correctly the server vision, the content should be for all the playerbase and not only for you or people that can follow your schedule.

Obviosly more organized players will have it faster, but here we are asking for a little improvement for the playerbase that play with the time thay have.

Because thats a big part of the community and i think a little help to keep that part engaged it's good.

I never ask for a rethinking usually, only if i feel something may be too off like this time.

Hope ppl can think of this as less self oriented by "how much my private partys can profit" and more like "lets have fun togheder"

Because it's the same as HoL where we helped many low level players for free but many private partyes wanted zenys. And personally i don't like custom content to be like HoL or like old Nova MH.

I say this with the best respect for everyone opinion, my english may not be perfect.

Crosscy

Mysto i Would think that the coins being tradable could solve a lot of the issue. I think shadow gears is actually pretty appropriate as a reward since we have been awarded most of the cash shop related stuff through custom features in this server (shadows, bsb thru zelu, gambler seals etc). The difficulty of the curve definitely can be adjusted i think, but its new so giving it some leeway would be cool. The coins being tradable would let people who don't want to do this content be able to get those items thru the economy playing whatever else content they want too.

From muh's perspective i understand the items after coins being tradable is good enough, but it does require a lot of saving for each part so the entry of these items into the market is still very time-gated and the rewards unseen for month+ for normal players (those only going 25, 4-5coin, so 20 coin is 4~5week of not seeing anything until the document is traded). With that long of a lead time to each piece, people could be even less willing to let go, those parts are going to be very overpriced for a long time like that. I think letting those players trade the coins would be a better progression curve for the new players and keep the instance rewarding without long wait (regardless its a weekly or daily version).

Just my 2 cents.

Sagii

titano5209 are you the armored titan?

zoraka

titano5209

Ah friend, please, you just need to open one attendance in a Discord at the beginning of the week and go to the run at the weekend according to the players who signed up.
Don't come to me with that thing about 'not everyone has the same time as you.' I also have IRL stuff(like work, son, wife) you just need to organize yourself, and it works. Instead of spending 3 hours sending messages in LFG.
And I don’t organize everything by myself, I have my guildmates to help, you can have the same!

Sagii

Can we also adjust the number of mobs if the floor is set up to received only one damage type? This is to avoid idle time of those who cannot contribute clearing the floor.

Akin

Sagii

Can we also adjust the number of mobs if the floor is set up to received only one damage type? This is to avoid idle time of those who cannot contribute clearing the floor.

Sometimes when there's one type of damage floors popping up back to back and one of the DPS group is imbalanced, watching as that DPS group struggle and we just watch from sideline is both boring and honestly just a sad situation as the other DPS just idle for 10-20+ minutes